I have been watching the DNC and this was a big theme. But I realised something from the speeches. No matter how much politicians like to talk about solving the problem, very little seems to actually be done about it. How do we solve gun violence? I think improving mental health care and decriminalzing drugs would do far more than limiting the size of magazine’s. What else can be done?
What improvements do you suggest for mental health care, and what hard evidence do you have that it will help? Please be specific.
Regards,
Shodan
I’m not boffking, but the mental health improvement seems straightforward - treat it the same way we treat kidney care. That is, cover it by Medicare, so people can get their therapy sessions and psych meds covered regardless of income. Yes, we’d pay for it by increasing the payroll tax, but I think that’s a worthy enough cause to merit a tax increase. Of course, the other way we should treat mental health like kidney disease is for society at large to not consider someone morally bankrupt for having a mental health issue - nobody says “uh, Bob has kidney failure and needs dialysis, what a weirdo”, but they will say “uh, Bob has schizophrenia and needs psych meds, what a weirdo”. Thankfully that is becoming less frequent, but I don’t think there’s a government program that could change societal perception.
That said, apparently only 4% of shootings in the US are related to mental illness, so covering mental health for all our citizens, while probably worthwhile anyway for the other benefits, is not the silver bullet that will solve all shootings.
I do think legalizing or at least decriminalizing drug use will have substantial knock on effects on gun violence. After all, drug gangs aren’t going to be shooting each over territory if their product is being sold at 50% off at CVS. And addicts are less likely to be robbing/burglarizing others if they can get treatment without fear of prosecution (see Portugal for an example of how decriminalization lowers overall drug use)
I heard on NPR and have a Politifact report that 55% of inmates in my state don’t have a high school diploma or equivalent, so it seems that improving our educational system would improve our crime rate, which seems like it would reduce the gun violence rate as well. I admit that improving education is not going to eliminate all 55% of those inmates from committing crimes and I also admit that not all of those crimes were gun related, but I do think there would be a helpful effect. I also admit that how to reform our educational system is a big enough topic to deserve it’s own thread.
My last point on this topic is that a great deal of the remaining gun violence has economics at it’s root. After all, most people with a steady job that pays well don’t need to resort to muggings and robberies. They are less likely to have family stress that will lead to domestic violence. And if things are going well, they have more to lose, so they’re more likely to think twice before pulling a trigger. Again, I don’t think this will eliminate the problem and I think it’s a big enough topic for it’s own thread, but I do think better jobs for the disadvantaged would reduce gun violence.
The advantage to this four pronged approach is that it targets the violence portion of the gun violence problem. I get that when there’s a shooting, the kneejerk reaction is to want to remove the gun from the equation. It’s not the worst idea, even though I generally support gun rights. It’s just not going to happen while we still have a Second Amendment in the US, and that’s not going away anytime soon, so we may as well focus our efforts on the violence portion of the equation and lower shooting deaths that way.
Of course, paying for mental health, improving the education system, and improving job opportunities for the poor will all cost money, which is probably going to come out of taxes for the middle-class and the upper-class. But I personally think that’s a worthwhile cause for a tax increase.
Sorry if this seems like threadshitting, but what can be done about ANY significant social problem? Are you asking about what could be done in “a perfect world”, or in today’s American political environment?
There are unlikely to be any significant changes that can have predictable impact - as Shodan so promptly demonstrates. Any changes will affect some interest group, which will likely point out such unpredictability while objecting to their ox being gored.
I think it is an error to address gun violence as a unique issue to be addressed. Instead, I think the best approach is one of “a rising sea lifts all boats.” What sort of society do we wish, and what would nudge us in that direction? I would like to see a society where there is more job opportunity, better education and health care, less income/wealth disparity, reforming our criminal justice system… Not taking the time to perfectly phrase an exhaustive list, but I think much of modern America is structured to provide the greatest advantages and opportunities to those already at the top, while not creating opportunities for decent lives for the middle and lower classes. It is unlikely that someone could accurately predict the outcomes of improving education - but even if it didn’t work, or didn’t provide the exact desired results, at least the efforts would have been well-intentioned rather than out of the fear and greed of particular interest groups.
Yeah, I’d urge some sort of registration, limits on sales, probably taxes - but those are very limited in the effect they would have - even IF they were politically possible. Personally, I do not think individuals carrying openly is a positive sign of a developed society. But a loud and wealthy group disagrees, and they have at least arguable support in the 2d Am.
I’m not sure our current political system is well suited to meaningfully address ANY significant political issues. To the extent it does, the efforts are incremental. Take ACA. Of course it is horrible, as it is primarily a sop to the insurance industry. But - hopefully - it is a step in the right direction towards something that WILL be workable and sustainable.
If people didn’t do drugs in the first place, there would be no drug violence.
Maybe we could start with that.
And if nobody shot anybody else, there would be no gun violence! Wow, problem solved people, pack it up!
Obviously people are imperfect and simply asking everyone to stop breaking the law without some carrot and stick is futile. In the real world there are many options we have to nudge group behavior one way or the other.
I don’t understand what is so goddamned hard about it.
As Ms. Frizzle would say, it’s time to Take Chances, Get Messy, and Make Mistakes! I suggest you take a field trip to the south side of your local metro area (it’s usually the south side), find the nearest gangbanger, and politely ask him to cease his illegal activity. Let us know how it goes!
One of the things that I have never understood about the ‘failures of the education system’ is simple. Why are they failing to graduate? and why is this seen as a failure by the institution instead of a failure of the student to be present and learn the materials they are given.
If it’s a culture thing, or a poverty thing, ok. But again, that isn’t a failure of the education system. That is either a failure of the government or a failure of their home system. (And sometimes, just maybe, it’s that they themselves have failed)
I’m not sure I see your point. I don’t drink, smoke, or use illegal drugs. I’ve never had an interest, nor even the slightest inclination to do so. The question here is whether we should accept one kind of criminality - drugs - to prevent a different kind of criminality - gun violence. That is bullshit. You enforce the law on both. Send them both to jail, and start holding people to a higher standard.
It’s not a moral virtue to abstain from doing things you have no interest in doing.
Some people want to do drugs, drink, and/or smoke. It’s a free country, right?
If drugs lead to gun crime, that sounds like an excellent reason not to drugs in the first place.
I’d suggest that aspects of gun violence/education/poverty be addressed as public health issues. My impression is that the most effective programs are often labor intensive - assigning caseworkers and such to monitor/educate/manage people. Unlike many children receiving extensive and expensive special education, at least some children in the poorest neighborhoods have the POTENTIAL of eventually being contributing members of society. But our society HATES expensive, comprehensive programs.
Some of the failures to graduate are probably not the failure of the educational system. You’re right, many of those failures are on the part of the student, and many others are parental in nature. But I think it’s naive to think that the school board/administration/teacher part of the equation is blameless as well. Fixing part of the problem is not the enemy of fixing the entire problem.
No, drugs don’t lead to gun violence. An underground black market economy around drugs is what leads to violence. This economy exists because of the legal prohibition against using and selling drugs.
Just say NO.
Intriguing idea.
Yep,
Violence seems to be a form of dispute resolution in many cases.
The reason why this is a “mental health” issue is that addiction is “mental health.” Had we spent nearly as much time, energy and lives on trying to provide harm reduction we could have probably done so with less violence.
Banning physical items creates black markets, which create entire economies where people have no access to our legal system. Banning objects to combat issues caused by banning substances will not solve the violence problem it will just create more issues.
It’s obviously all of the above. The issue is that it’s much easier to attack these problems from certain angles like school reform. It’s the same reason we attack the problem of road fatalities largely by making cars safer rather than trying to get people to drive in a completely safe manner. Obviously it’s not that unsafe cars are primarily the issue, but making them safer is probably the best way to mitigate the problem.
I think we just need to distribute a whole bunch of bootstraps!
I’m all for better mental health care. Our society needs it. But, I don’t think that’s going to affect gun violence much at all.
Similarly, I don’t think BG checks do all that much either.
What we’re going to have to do is severely restrict the number of guns in the country. We’ll have to go the way of countries like Germany, which actually has fairly high gun ownership, and make licensing much, much stricter. You should have to prove you really are some sort of gun professional and pillar of society, with all the examinations, mental health evaluations and positive background interviews with family members, coworkers and neighbors to prove it.
Like Australia, we’ll need the populace to turn in their guns. We can incentivize it. Guns for game consoles or cash or something. Lots of people will hide their guns. We know this.
Severely restrict gun sales and manufacturers, increase accountability, and eliminate the “lost or stolen” loopholes gun shops and sellers use to explain large disappearances of guns.
With so many guns circulating already, it will take awhile to have an effect I know. Eventually, the cost of an illegal gun will price them out of the range of most common thugs and idiots.
Dedicated terrorists will still manage to get guns, but the ridiculous number of shootings we have now will eventually drop.
Bottom line: far, far fewer guns will result in far, far fewer shootings.