Some advice needed about my novel writing

Cafe Society
1

Two Septembers ago, I posted here that I was writing a novel. Well, the first draft is finished and for some time, I have been working on the first revision. I would have a couple of questions about whether what I’m doing is right.

For some background, this is my first novel. I have already published one book and various articles, but these are all non-fiction. I wrote with a goal of having at least a word count of 80,000, and the file is currently slightly over this figure. The story is divided into three acts of ten chapters each. It is told in 1st person POV as a retrospective, and covers a period of a good ten years.

With that out of the way, these are my questions:

  • Is it necessary for chapters to have a more or less consistent length and timing? My chapters vary between, let’s say, 4 and 9 pages in length (that is, letter size page, single space, 12-point Times New Roman font), though they average 5 or 6 pages. There is no set time length for a chapter. Some cover only a day, others cover one or two or even several months. This is an exception, but the first chapter of the second act condenses four years into a series of letters written by the central character to the narrator during a time when the former was out of the latter’s life. Is this bad? Each chapter is designed to cover a “beat” or step in the story, and some of these are longer, while others are shorter. Sometimes the pace of the quest speeds up, sometimes it slows down, and I think this in part affects chapter length.

  • My story is full of dialogue. Is there some rule for using discourse words like “said”, “asserted”, “quipped”, “shouted”, “chimed in”, and so on to good effect? I do use quite a variety of these, though when a dialog gets particularly long, I tend to stop using them altogether and just write it in terms of alternating quotes between the two characters. Also, are there any discourse words I should avoid?

  • Any other strong advice you would give me for writing technique that would appeal to the modern fiction publisher / novel reader? I have been listening to various videos on Youtube about writer’s craft and have adopted some of the advice I’ve heard. I will note beforehand that my novel contains no “purple prose” and descriptions are kept moderate in length, if not brief (I myself always disliked reading purple prose). I am trying to “show, not tell” (and currently perusing videos on this very topic), though this is difficult at times, given that the story is written as a 1st person POV memoir. If nothing else, I am trying to keep exposition brief and to a minimum.

2

I think the best general rule of thumb for varying those words is “don’t”. “Said” is invisible. Trying to get clever too much draws your attention out of the story and into the writing.

3

I don’t have any specific advice that matches up with your most specific questions but I’d be a beta reader if you wish one. And you should wish some, by the way. Get as much feedback as you can get.

4

I agree with Darren: “said” is best. The effectiveness of what is said should impart the way it is said, if that makes sense. As for chapter length, I would try to keep them more or less consistent, otherwise it will seem weird. Some authors will make a notably different length chapter like:

Chapter 9

But they didn’t.

But this is an exception to the rule. Without having read it I don’t have any specific advice for you, but generally speaking, less is more. Write a rough draft, then go through it and take out anything that isn’t totally necessary. You may find it reads better afterward.

5

Very much this.

That said, you may find you want to use a more descriptive word like “whispered” (if your characters are hiding in the closet from an intruder, they should whisper to each other) or “shouted” (if they’re standing next to a running helicopter) or whatever. But always ask yourself if “said” can work instead. Or better still, ask yourself if you can get by without a dialogue tag.

I’ve been copyediting self-published novels for more than ten years, and I’ve seen plenty of dialogue tags that told me that someone “chimed in” or “interrupted” (when it didn’t appear to be an interruption) or “quipped” or “retorted.” No need for any of that. Ever.

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Some books do, some books don’t. So it’s not necessary; but some readers do appreciate it. I occasionally get annoyed as a reader when I decide to read just one more chapter, and that chapter turns out to be way longer than I expected.

I agree. But this is one of those rules that you can break if you have a good reason to—if there’s a specific reason you want your reader to notice the word you’ve chosen, beyond just a desire for variety or cleverness.

7

About chapter length, keep in mind that a greater number of smaller chapters will have the effect of making the book feel as if it’s moving along faster. I’m not sure there’s a situation where you would want make it feel slow, but faster pacing (or the perception thereof) would be more critical if you’re writing a space opera than if you have a ponderous psychological literary novel.

Similarly, be aware of paragraphing. You do want to vary paragraph length, but be very cautious about confronting your readers with numerous big walls of text.

8

I don’t think worrying about making the lengths of your book’s chapters consistent is going to help anything. I think you’ve got the right idea as it is. At random, I grabbed Lord of the Flies to see how many pages its chapters have. Most are in the teens, but one is 23 pages and a couple are just nine.

9

I am far from an expert, but my view on chapter length is that it would be fine to write a few shorter chapters, but I would advise against writing any that are much longer than your average chapter.

mmm

10

I would very much appreciate that. Will PM you.

Point taken. Will look out for this when editing.

I see opinions on chapter length vary. I would try not to have great extremes in chapter length difference, certainly I wouldn’t want to have any super-long chapters. I will measure each current chapter’s length and see if there’s any that would seem overly long.

As for paragraph length, I do try not to write overly long paragraphs (in my current writing most tend to be short), and I think I’ve mastered not writing run-on lines.

11

I’m not an author (even amateur), just a reader, so that is the perspective my advise is coming from.

As mentioned by several people, an uncalled for variety of dialogue tags can get annoying (looking at you Warrior Cats), but what’s even more annoying is when it isn’t clear which character said which line. Look at a series on the page like this:

“Lorem ipsum…”
"Dolor sit amet,
“Consectetur adipiscing elit,”
“Sed do eiusmod…”
“Tempor incididunt ut”

It might be perfectly clear to the author which character is saying which thing, but it can be very confusing to the reader. Now I’m hunting for those missing quotation marks at the end of paragraphs and other clues. Is the speech alternating? What if there are more than two speakers? Leaving out dialogue tags in these cases is a great way to slow down the reader and ruin what is meant to be a fast paced exchange.

I do not know how to do something more interesting than just a bunch of “said Cicero” and “Cicero said”.

Again, non-learned author view. Don’t break up a long scene arbitrarily just because you hit a page length limit. Maybe there are other reasons to break it, but I kind of get annoyed when there is a chapter break, but clearly the next chapter is just the next paragraph.

12

Find some books by authors you like. Go through their dialogue to see how they handle it. You’ll probably find that worrying about “said” isn’t a problem. Said is often useful and the best solution. Often, though, no words are needed at all. The dialogue is slid into other descriptive writing, and uses the character’s name while advancing the mood.

I picked up the first fiction book to hand. It’s a 1936 romance, part of research into a publisher. I wouldn’t ever recommend as a how-to-write book, but I can open it at random and find examples of what I mean.

“Her soft old voice with the slurring of letters…”

“Cindy gave him a sullen look but her reply was entirely respectful.”

“Gail’s smile was bitter.”

“Aunt Clem ended the scene, with her usual authoritative manner.”

Chapter length isn’t particularly important. Some scenes require more action and interaction.

Donald Westlake wrote a parody of this in Adios Scheherazade. The character, like Westlake, had written a number of soft-core porn novels to a formula. He now couldn’t function in any other way.

It all started when somebody said if you can write a grammatical letter, you can write a sex novel. The formula: ten chapters of 5,000 words or fifteen pages each, one sex scene per chapter. Ed swallowed the bait, $1,000 a book, and in two and a half years he churned out twenty-eight formula novels. But now Ed has problems–he can’t get opus twenty-nine off the ground, if he fails to produce on time his grotty publisher will fire him, he’s flat broke and the bills are mounting, his marriage is visibly crumbling as he sweats over the typewriter and he can’t, he really c-a-n-n-o-t thump out the next novel.

Compulsively typing in fifteen page stints, he stumbles from aborted chapter to aborted chapter, punctuated by flashbacks and an up-to-the-minute chronicle of his furiously sliding, uncontrollable life.

So. Don’t sweat the small stuff. Make your characters interesting. Don’t write literal cliffhangers into your chapters, but try to ensure that they make readers desperately want to go another and another. Try to eliminate bumps that take readers out of the story, as echoreply suggested. When you’re done put it in a drawer for a month until you can look at it fresh. Most importantly, make sure you enjoy reading every word. If you don’t, readers won’t. Take them out however important they seem. Find others. Other words are all around you. Pick the best.

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  1. Chapters can be any length you want. I’ve had 5000 word chapters; I’ve also had ten-word chapters. Whatever works.

  2. You’re go-to speech tag should be “said.” “Asked” can be used when necessary. Other tags are considered bad form; the technical name is “saidbookism.” “Said” is invisible; anything else is needlessly calling attention to the tags, not the speech.

  3. Other than speech tags, it sounds like you’re on the right track. The nice thing about first person is that it’s better if you have to do a lot of exposition (or if there’s a mystery).

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I enjoyed reading themapleleaf’s book in beta format. The characters are well fleshed out and it’s a warm and entertaining story with pretty good hooks and some social relevance.

Any of the rest of you who might consider being a beta reader are encouraged to toss your hat in the ring and give feedback.

15

I’ve written quite a few novels and studied craft in various ways. Keep in mind, though, that I’m self-published (aside from two game-fiction novels), so my answers will reflect that. Your mileage will be different in some areas if you’re trying to get commercially published than if you’re going the indie route.

  • As far as chapter lengths, I’m of the opinion that, unless you’re trying for a specific style, chapters should be as long as they need to be. That’s not to say you should be writing 10,000-word chapters, but if one of your chapters gets its point across in 2,000 words but the next one takes 5,000, that’s okay. I’ve never found readers to care, at least in genre fiction. That’s the other thing–if you mentioned your genre, I missed it.

  • I’m going to slightly disagree with some of the other commenters about “said.” While I do think that “said” and “asked” are your workhorse dialog tags and that they are invisible, I also believe they can get old if they’re all you use. I think some other dialog tags (like “replied” or “suggested”) can be almost as invisible as “said,” while others (like “quipped,” “retorted,” and “shot back”) stick out and are (at least to me) annoying. The trick to good writing is to know the rules and know when you can break them. It’s something you acquire as you get more words under your belt.

Also, there are other ways to convey dialog than using a tag. Sometimes you can get away without them for a little while after establishing who’s speaking in a two-person conversation:

“Hi,” Mary said. “How are you today?”
“Eh, been better,” Tom said. “Where are you going?”
“To the store, to pick up some rutabagas.”
“Hey, I love rutabagas. Can I come with you?”
“Sure, but I"m leaving right now.”

The trick with that is not to let it go too long, so readers don’t get confused.

The other thing you can do is use actions to convey dialog:

“Hi,” Mary said. “How are you today?”
Tom rubbed the back of his neck. “Eh, been better.”
“Yeah. I heard about what happened.” She didn’t meet his gaze.

Another thing to be careful about (and this is hard, at least for me!) is you need to vary your actions. When I look through my stuff, it’s embarrassing how often people shrug and sigh. It’s very easy to fall into the trap, which is why a good editor is always important.

  • I think you’ve got a pretty good idea of what to do (and not to do) to appeal to modern readers. Again, I’m speaking from a genre (urban fantasy, in my case) writer’s perspective–I don’t know anything about writing literary fiction–but modern readers like fast-paced books without a lot of excessive description, so you’re good there. One thing I read recently, though, that caught my eye was that almost all bestselling novels, compared with ones that don’t do as well, contain at least some content that allows the reader to get to know their characters in scenes that might not technically be “necessary” for moving the plot along. You should always strive to make sure all your scenes serve a purpose, but getting to know your characters in a more “mundane” setting is a purpose as well. I’ve found this to be true–some of the best comments I get from readers are about silly little throwaways I toss in that let them see a different side of my characters.

Oh, and don’t worry overmuch about “show, don’t tell.” That gets tossed around a lot, but many writers, especially at the beginning of their careers, take it as law. It’s not. Some scenes are better shown, and others (ones where it’s important to convey the information but not the specifics of how it occurred) can be told. The trick is not to infodump–make your telling as breezy and good to read as your showing.

I’m definitely interested in hearing more about your book!

16

Thanks again for taking the time to review my novel. I’m glad you liked it, and I’ve taken the suggestions you provided as beta reader to heart. They have been most valuable.

If you (or anyone else) wish to peruse it, please PM me.

My novel is inspired by an out-of-copyright French classic that was written over a century ago. However, it is set in the time and environment in which I grew up and is semi-autobiographical and there are a lot of original elements in my book. It’s written as a quest story and a coming-of-age story.

I am now working on a second, close revision of the text.

I originally used a lot of these various dialog tags, as it was a way of writing that I had gotten used to. While editing following the above answers to my query, I have been replacing many of them with “said” and “asked”, and removing others. However, there are some varied dialog tags I kept, because I think they convey the characters’ speech and emotions at the time of speaking better.

I think this an excellent device. Originally, there wasn’t much of this in my text, but I’ve added a few such actions during the revision.

I think there needs to be a balance, though it also varies on the genre and writing style. Generally, “show don’t tell” is I think good advice in that you don’t want too much exposition or artificial insertion of backstory into dialog. What you can convey by telling, you should. However, there is a time and a place.for showing as well.

17

As for chapter lengths, more important than the number of pages is that each should end with a reason for the reader to turn the page to the next chapter. It doesn’t have to be a high tension cliff hanger, but it needs to be something.
Definitely get beta readers. I was in a critique group, and it was very helpful. You should get one who is good at craft issues and one who is good on plot issues - they are different skill sets.
Look for your tics. A book I was reading for a contest had every character smirking all the damn time. Once you notice this you can search for overused words and edit them out.
I hope you read your book aloud as well as silently. You find a whole new set of problems that way.

18

One good way to end a chapter is, yes, with something like a “high tension cliff hanger” that makes the reader want to turn the page immediately. The other good way is to give the reader a natural stopping place (because they probably won’t be able to read your book all the through in one sitting, even if they wanted to) that makes the reader want to pick the book up again as soon as possible.

19

Stopping is their problem, not yours. Too many high tension cliffhangers get absurd. The '50s,'60s Nancy Drew books had one at the end of every chapter, reasonable or not. (I read the books to my daughter for years.) The worst was when Nancy was on a cruise ship in the middle of the ocean, nothing was happening, and a meteorite crashed into the ocean near them. No impact on them, no impact on the plot, but a cliffhanger.
I’ve found in reading that an unanswered question often works better.

20

You don’t need a cliffhanger at the end of each chapter. You can use a narrative hook instead: something to make the reader wonder what happens next.

For example:

She wondered if she made a mistake.

Roger knew he hadn’t seen the last of her.