Some Christians and Alcohol Consumption

Yeah I’m good for one day, tops.

If you’re passed out drunk, wouldn’t you be on the bottom?

They didn’t have refrigeration 2000 years ago so there was no “non-alcoholic grape juice” outside of harvest season. Alcohol being considered bad is a cultural taboo not a Christian one. It’s similar to those in the USA who thought playing cards was always evil.

It was on two different nights…and after he had passed out. There’s also some evidence suggesting his daughters may have thought everyone else on earth had been wiped out and it was only the 3 of them left. Still…yikes.

Maybe you need better looking relatives or stronger drinks.

A a more neutral way of phrasing that might be that when drunkenness gets out of hand, it’s easier for the guardians of morality to proscribe alcohol entirely.

I grew up Catholic, and it’s true they do like their alcohol, but consider drunkenness to be morally bad. Martin Luther was notable for his enjoyment of beer, so Lutherans have roughly the same attitude.

Paul preaches against drunkenness:

1 Corinthians 5:11

New International Version

11 But now I am writing to you that you must not associate with anyone who claims to be a brother or sister but is sexually immoral or greedy, an idolater or slanderer, a drunkard or swindler. Do not even eat with such people.

1 Timothy 3:8

New International Version

8 In the same way, deacons are to be worthy of respect, sincere, not indulging in much wine, and not pursuing dishonest gain.

Don’t forget Episcopalians. Luther was known to be a brewer. He has a famous quote on beer: “ Whoever drinks beer , he is quick to sleep; whoever sleeps long, does not sin; whoever does not sin, enters Heaven! Thus, let us drink beer!”

We Lutherans keep on his love of beer to this day :smiley:. Also it appears that these days Beer & Hymns are becoming more a thing.

Oh, I haven’t. In fact, I’m one! I was a bit surprised when I started at our church that we ended up going to a dinner thing with our pastor, and he, along with everyone else, had several glasses of wine.

Definitely not the Baptist/conservative Methodist church I was brought up in/around (mostly around). Much more like the Catholics at my high school (a Jesuit one).

Southern Baptist here and we have these beliefs in our church. The church is also a community group like any other, in addition to being a religious group. So not every plank in the platform is based on hard scripture.

The way we look at it is that we are just a group of like minded people who have decided that alcohol is a bad thing for society and also the individual. So we have made the personal choice to abstain from it.

We don’t feel it’s a commandment from God or something we need to force on others. Of course I can only speak for my personal experience in my church of a hundred or so people.

In this context, it was more because stored fresh water doesn’t remain drinkable for very long, whereas beer does.

If they were really based on scripture, they would know that it’s the love of money. :grinning:

Old joke:

Q - Why do you always invite two Baptists with you to go fishing?

A - If you invite only 1 he’ll drink all your beer.

I’m neither a translator nor a prohibitionist, but I can’t help but notice that you quoted a translation (English) of the text. Demonstrating that there is no wiggle room in a translation by people who’ve already necessarily taken a particular position doesn’t advance your argument.

Or, as they say in my parents’ Episcopal church, wherever you find four Episcopalians, you’ll find a fifth.

John 2:1-11

King James Version

2 And the third day there was a marriage in Cana of Galilee; and the mother of Jesus was there:

2 And both Jesus was called, and his disciples, to the marriage.

3 And when they wanted wine, the mother of Jesus saith unto him, They have no wine.

4 Jesus saith unto her, Woman, what have I to do with thee? mine hour is not yet come.

5 His mother saith unto the servants, Whatsoever he saith unto you, do it.

6 And there were set there six waterpots of stone, after the manner of the purifying of the Jews, containing two or three firkins apiece.

7 Jesus saith unto them, Fill the waterpots with water. And they filled them up to the brim.

8 And he saith unto them, Draw out now, and bear unto the governor of the feast. And they bare it.

9 When the ruler of the feast had tasted the water that was made wine, and knew not whence it was: (but the servants which drew the water knew;) the governor of the feast called the bridegroom,

10 And saith unto him, Every man at the beginning doth set forth good wine; and when men have well drunk, then that which is worse: but thou hast kept the good wine until now.

And what translation of John 2:10 would actually reflect the Greek text? It’s not that there’s no wiggle room in the translation, it’s that there’s no wiggle room in the meaning of the original text. In this passage of the Gospel of John, Jesus is portrayed as having turned water into οἶνος for a group of people who had already μεθύω (methyō). You can translate “μεθύω” as "have well drunk’ or “have had too much to drink” as you please, but I can’t see how any translation can say that word isn’t from μέθη, and that word has an inescapable meaning of “strong drink” or “drunkenness” (that is, intoxication from consuming alcohol). Μεθύω just doesn’t mean “drinking unfermented grape juice”.

And then there’s the rest of the sentence. Normally at the beginning of a party the host serves higher-quality unfermented grape juice; and then when everyone has drunk a lot of unfermented grape juice, the host begins serving them lower-quality unfermented grape juice [or perhaps younger or more-recent unfermented grape juice] but you have saved the best-quality unfermented grape juice until now. How does that make any sense whatsoever?

The idea that “the Bible” (a diverse collection of texts, written by different people over the course of many hundreds of years) invariably and in every passage teaches total abstinence from the consumption of alcoholic beverages is a silly and ahistorical idea that has been promoted by a segment of Protestant Christians beginning in a relatively recent historical era. However sympathetic we may be about the real social problems caused by the excessive consumption of alcoholic beverages in 18th and 19th century society (and especially the social problems surrounding the consumption of distilled, high-proof liquors as opposed to fermented beverages like wine and beer, which of course no one who wrote any of the Biblical texts had any knowledge of), there is simply no basis to ascribing to “the Bible” the ideas of mandatory total abstinence from all alcoholic beverages, nor their legal prohibition.

Schooled…

Some previous threads that may interest you:

Baptists Delighted They Can Now Wear Masks At Liquor Store