some good stuff, but... (Christian Sunday Worship)

[Voyager]

[QUOTE=jojoschmo]

~~~~~ The bible is NOT the ultimate source

Sorry, I beg to differ, you are simply wrong.

Without the book, we would barely know the name of Jesus or his death, burial, and resurrection, or have good reason to follow him. Most of what he and the apostles said and did and taught us is not available anywhere else. There are the aforementioned secondary documents (“church fathers” and the like) but most of what they say refers back to the book, and their opinions (right, wrong, or otherwise) were formed based on the book (and what they had learned from various men before them). The greatest, but hardly exclusive, value of the writings of the “church fathers” is that they quoted scripture, so that even if we lost everything today we could essentially restore the bible from their quotations alone.

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Just out of curiosity, when do you think the four Gospels were written, and who do you think wrote them?

And don’t you find it odd that, in a reasonably literate population for the time, no contemporaries thought it interesting to note down the supposed miracles? Not to mention that Christianity did much better recruiting those far from the scene of the supposed events.

Without the book we wouldn’t really know about the Sabbath or The Feast of Weeks or Noah or the flood (we can deal with the Sumerian/Babylonian records of that event at another time) or the parting of the sea or many other things. Sure we might still have the traditions of men as derived from the rabbinical commentaries (Midrashim, Mishnah, Gemara, Talmud), but they also refer back to and quote the book (Torah in its narrowest sense, Tanach, OC), and base their interpretations and opinions on what they got from the book (and the men that preceded and taught them).

I suspect that the Sabbath predated the writing of the Bible, and also that there is ample historical evidence of the celebration of it and of holidays.

Without the book we would have no reason to be Jews (or care why) or Christians or claim to follow Moses or Christ.

That’s an interesting misconception. I’m Jewish, and when I believed I don’t think I’d ever have said that I followed Moses. Jews don’t deify Moses the way you guys deify Jesus (or the Romans deified the Emperor.)

And if the book isn’t right in all of its particulars, then how could we know which ones are right.

And if the book is not right, and we can’t figure out what in it is right, then we should throw it in the garbage can and recycle it as biology books (although they have plenty of problems of their own or paper plates and cups so that we can eat, drink, and be merry and forget about the rest of the world.

Excellent points. Now, what would convince you that the Bible is not right in all particulars? How much scientific evidence would you require to be convinced that the universe was not created in six days, and that there was no global Flood? Recycling Bibles into science books is okay by me (though they are useful as literature, as historical documents, and as the reference of the inspiration of a lot of western literature and art). However, science books also should get recycled into newer, more accurate science books. That’s the way we advance our knowledge.

And I could go back to playing golf most of the time or much of the rest of the time jumping from one woman’s bed to another or sending them off to be replaced by another on a pretty regular basis from my own bed. I enjoyed those many years of my life for the most part and would return to that lifestyle in an instant if someone could show me that the book is not to be trusted. It took some powerful knowledge and understanding based on facts, evidence, and reason for me to walk away from my former worldview, and embrace the God of the book and the book through which we can now know him and hear him speak.

I’m sorry to hear that you need a myth in order to be ethical. (The bed part, not the golf part.) I’m an atheist, and have had no trouble being married and faithful for 30 years. You don’t need story books to do that, you just need to think of other people.