If he did not think it was wrong, why did he vigorously deny doing it when accused of it?
Likely because he feared the legal and PR consequences once he found out that it was a big deal. Just my WAG.
Or, he knew it was illegal and was desperately hoping that his co-conspirators would not testify against him. I mean, if I were busted for kite flying on Sunday, and the feds obviously had the goods on me, the first thing I would say is “You’re kidding me. Kite flying on Sunday is illegal?”
Here’s another question – If he did not know it was illegal, why go to such lengths to hide it? It makes no sense.
I just wanted to say that I agreed with the thread title before even reading the OP.
Which, since she wasn’t really active in the public consciousness until the 80s, you must admit was quite a feat.
I don’t know a lot about the facts of this case, sorry. Nothing about his denial suggests to me, in the absence of other evidence, that he knew at the time the extent to which his actions were immoral.
It seems possible that he did, in fact, know that what he was doing was wrong. Even if that is so, I think the ire toward Whoopi is severely misplaced.
I think that you have to do some significant parsing of “South” and “subculture” to potray dogfighting as something iherently “southern”. I find it curious that the person who seems most attached to the idea that there is a southern dogfighting subculture list his location as Manhattan…
Based on my readings of the Vick case, there seems to be a subculture of dogfighting among some professional black athletes and some black rap artists. It would seem that the fighting dog may be seen as another aspect of “gangsta” life. Fights apparently also occur in New York City, Los Angeles, and Chicago - - areas most people don’t consider southern.
Still, chainsawing Whoopi over a stupid comment is going to leave her very sore several times a week.
Whoopi is apparently saying that cultural upbringing excuses atrocious behavior. Vick killed dogs by drowning them, and slamming them to the ground, and electrocuting them. He trained them to fight using methods almost too barbaric to mention. Cites provided upon request. And she offers a defense based on “that’s the way things are where he grew up.”
I’m from the Deep South. I have never seen, been to, heard of, or knew a participant in a dog fight. It sure as hell ain’t the cultural norm.
Is there a subculture of dogfighting? Sure. There’s a subculture of gang violence too. And meth dealing. And racketeering. Do any of those get a pass?
Where is she saying that it excuses the behavior?
I think the subculture of dogfighting is fundamentally different from the subculture of meth dealing. YMMV.
What bullshit. I’ve already said that the culture is incidentally in the South, not inherently there. But it is, in fact , incidentally centered in the Southern US.
Are you seriously suggesting that her comments are not offered as a justification for what he did? How can you read it otherwise?
How about gang related violence? Organized crime? The KKK? Are you saying that some subcultures are morally independent entities, while others are not?
Yes. I didn’t see the video, but the transcript looks more like an effort at understanding than defending.
I’m saying that some subcultural practices are more removed from the central moral and legal teachings that everyone in society is exposed to.
You have a point there, though right or wrong we do not view chickens they way we do dogs. More importantly, its not so much the dogfighing itself that got Vick into som much trouble, it was the abject cruelty he exhibited while being engaged in dogfighting. While I and most people do object to dogfighting, it pretty much stays off the radar until such intentional and unnecessary cruelty is exhibited.
It looks to me like pontificating. Usually, attempts at understanding involve questions, not declarations.
So what? Whoopi was saying that those teachings don’t apply because Vick grew up the way he did.
Take your incidentals and shove them.
From here: 'But Goodwin said it would be a mistake to associate dogfighting solely with the South or with rural areas. In the United States, it’s prevalent in most major cities.
‘“It’s started to shift to the urban environment within the past 10 years,” Goodwin said. “It actually started in Boston and New York in the 1920s and 1930s because of Irish and English immigrants, and then it went away for a while, but it’s become huge again in cites like Chicago, New York, Los Angeles and even Baltimore.”’
They’re actually in the process of retrofitting the couches on The View with chainsaws. The chainsaws are activated, not by The Clapper, but by The Slapper: whenever the occupant of the seat utters something forehead-slappingly inane…VRRRRROOOOOMMMMMMM.
I won’t take the fact that you’re defending the South as having anything to do with your lack of reading comprehension. No one said anything about “solely.”
Since you seem to be having trouble following along, Richard, I’ll type more slowly, so you can keep up. You wrote:
Use whatever wiggle-words you want to, but you’re the one who seems to insist that the dogfighting subculture is centered in the South.
I, and others in this thread disagree with that assessment. I provided a cite to back that up. In the cited article, the author (that’s the person who wrote the words) quoted an expert who used the word “solely”. Rather than quote out of context, I included the statement as written. Understand?
Yep, there it is - boxing and dogfighting, both involving participants being chained up, given weak opponents to kill*, tied to rape stands, forced to fight routinely to the point of death or severe injury and then executed when they fail to perform well.
Exact parallel. Good comparison.**
*Ali was gracious enough not to beat Michael Kinsley to death during training.
**I am not a boxing fan and I don’t hunt. I have been known to eat sausage though, so there it is.
Yes, centered, the exact word the authors used.