For several years I dated a person with BPD + depression + anxiety. I deal with people who have BPD quite frequently in my family law practice.
I realize that some people are able to learn to handle a BPD spouse, but speaking only for myself, I would not knowingly date a person with BPD, for I would rather have an enjoyable relationship, and if I were to have children with a person who then developed BPD, I would move heaven and earth to obtain sole custody for myself with very stringent if any access for her, for from what I have observed, the damage caused by BPD parents to their children is often horrendous.
“Run,” “don’t stick your dick in teh crazy,” “life is too short,” and “there are plenty of other fish in the sea,” are IMHO often wise words when it comes to BPD.
YMMV, but for myself, I try to steer clear of people suffering from BDP.
Really good point. I will try to be less self-centered.
I’ve chopped your post up a bit to avoid, as much as possible, the “wall of text” effect and to address things as briefly as possible. I hope that’s okay with you.
I am a consumer of mental health services too, as I have bipolar I disorder, some symptoms of PTSD from childhood abuse, and have to deal with family members who have personality disorders (mostly narcissists). My BPD “friend” is the least of it! So I’ve had a lot of experience with both “talk therapies” and pharmaceuticals.
Here are my concerns:
Throughout my experience as a consumer, I have been really disturbed by the tendency of doctors and therapists to give me the “marketing schpiel” and not the hard data. In fact, a lot of mental health practitioners get upset when I want to talk specifics I learned from papers or books I’ve read. I know that patients like me, who like to know details and do research, are a minority, but we’re not a tiny minority. I met quite a few others like me in partial hospital. IMHO, doctors (and to a lesser extent, therapists) should know and be ready to discuss the scientific details. But I’ve met many who either didn’t know the details, or didn’t want to discuss them. They just wanted to give the marketing gloss. I find that scary.
The majority of patients get their information primarily from their doctors and therapists. I think it would be better if the “marketing schpiel” included at least some brief discussion of scientific details. Like, “for people with X diagnosis, Y% of those using Z treatment show significant improvement in symptoms A, B, and C.” I have just met too many patients who were let down when they were told “SSRIs work with few side effects!” or “CBT does wonders for people with your condition!” Later they find out that Paxil leaves them still semi-depressed as well as fat and anorgasmic, or that they still have panic attacks despite doing an EBT for them. And they get discouraged, and feel lied to, and become disenchanted with the idea of any psychological treatment. Some of these folks have said to me that they would have preferred to get more detail up front. I think it would help with getting people to comply with all kinds of treatments in the long term. So I don’t hate all marketing. Just the overly ebullient stuff.
I totally agree. But I actually think the mental health system is flawed in much bigger ways, and the lack of interest in whether treatments are based in science is just part of a larger problem that includes the health care system as a whole. (A lot of medical treatments for physical illnesses aren’t based in science either!) I’m not confident that more prominent, glossy marketing of EBTs is anything more than another leaky Band-Aid on our broken system. I personally think training and licensing and regulation of psychiatrists and psychologists needs to change radically. But I’ll spare you my ramblings on that.
Despite all this, I think there is value in pure talk therapy for many patients. While it is “unscientific” in that the quality and nature of talk therapy varies wildly from therapist to therapist, studies do indicate that, over time, depression sufferers who do just talk therapy (of whatever sort) do just as well as patients who just take antidepressants. And patients who do both improve more than either group. So I don’t think that all “unscientific” treatments are a “waste.”
I just think it is best practice to have some disclosure up front of some brief specifics on efficacy for any treatment, whether it’s an EBT or a drug or “unscientific” talk therapy.
We have strayed so far afield of the OP, I hope MichaelEmouse can forgive us.
I hope so too. You’ve raised a lot of really good points and I will definitely be considering them as I move forward with my own career goals. Thanks for being willing to discuss.
No way, this thread is about me, just like the rest of the internet.
I’m glad I was the starting point for your exchange and will be remembering both your names if I have questions.
Yeah, I don’t know about you, but my fingers are tired. I too have really enjoyed the discussion. Respectful, intelligent debate is hard to come by, so this has been a treat.
Tethered Kite, I wanted you to know, I copied this to a text file on my desktop, and the past few days have just left that file open so I can click and read as needed. I can’t tell you how it’s helped me.
Actually, I know you guys were talking about me. Trading emails. Being mean. You are just jealous of me, because I’m wonderful. And I’m going to put all your stuff in the driveway and drive over it. But its your fault, cause you made me do it, because you were all talking about me behind my back.
But then you’ll like me again…right? Cause I’m such a fuck up…You can’t leave me, what would I do?
Yeah, Dangerosa You didn’t even smash anything, cut yourself with it and then blame this thread. Sad really.
I live in a small place and have a foreign accent, so does a nutty friend of mine. I called the power company about something and the guy said tiredly “Is this Mrs. Unreasonabledemands is it?” God, I felt sorry for him, but was laughing like a drain. She’s the sort of person who’d call the power company over and over when the power is off. Listen here my good man - you get that power back on RIGHT NOW - how the hell am I going to blow dry my hair?
OP: Do you like partners to be unfaithful? Do you enjoy frequent visits to hospitals and police stations? Do you want to lose every one of your current friends? Do you want any and all social events to be only you, her, and possibly one or two of her (equally crazy) friends, and to always end in a visit to either a hospital, police station, or both? Do you want your partners to cheat, lie, and steal? Do you want never-ending drama?
If that all sounds like fun - the woman is right for you. If not, run far, far away.
IMO this bolded part is worrying. I think having a parent who alienates his offspring in that way is a very bad sign.
After years of proclaiming that I was especially good at setting/keeping healthy boundaries I stepped off into a hellish hole of a lack of boundaries and delusion. In hindsight I realized that my boundary-keeping skills had indeed been very poor. Now I attribute the unfortunate misstep to having been raised by an undiagnosed BPD mother. I think the offspring of BPDs (or even the offspring of those parents showing some classic BPD traits, like your father) have a blind spot, can be too optimistic, and also feel a certain attraction/affection towards other BPDs. IOW your history with your father makes you more vulnerable in a relationship with a BPD, not less vulnerable.
If you insist on going forward with this, perhaps make specific rules for yourself. For instance…
if you notice the same idiotic BPD behavior comes around for the 3rd* time, call it quits, no excuses, no exceptions. Make a solemn promise to yourself and then DO NOT GO BACK ON YOUR WORD. Write it down if necessary, and then read it when the tell-tale signs show up.
If you find yourself having a ridiculous circular argument where something that is clearly not your fault is suddenly your fault, immediately stop the argument. My own rule was “if it’s not up for discussion, then don’t discuss it.”
if you are accused of being a brute just because you have a different opinion, walk away. Same goes for if you’re a horrid meanie for taking the side of someone who the BPD hates. Being accused when you’re innocent is harmful. BPDs typically can’t deal with people who have different opinions because it blows apart their internal sense of self. But emotionally healthy people can have different opinions without having a meltdown or making it into a personal attack.
maintain other healthy relationships that are unconnected to the BPD. Having friends and other options for occupying your time helps keep you clear and balanced. Being around healthy people can also provide a good contrast in comparison to any unhealthiness that creeps into your BPD relationship. They are also good for having someone who will say “dude, that’s definitely NOT a good thing,” if they notice you’re losing perspective. And if you don’t have any healthy relationships to keep you in check, you definitely have no business getting involved with a BPD.
re the 3 strikes rule, I don’t even let it go that far anymore. Just one incident of illogic and irrationality is all it takes for me to walk away. That’s because insanity from a BPD person will invariably be followed by more of the same. And even if it’s not I don’t care to stick around to find out one way or another.
Many times with BPD— when unregulated— decisions are made in response to fear. There is a high level of impulsivity and seemingly there are relationship derailments that make no sense, feel quite punitive, and destructive.
Folks with BPD have the emotional volume turned up in their brain, and suffer from cognitive distortions like— you will be showing neutral interest toward your mate and it will be read as rejection. Don’t bother explaining or getting defensive…
When a person with BPD paints you black— some have this ruthless ability to create painful drama to make you leave. Verbal abuse is more the rule. And its not in the beginning typically. There is raging.
I will never have an intimate live in relationship again with someone with BPD. Friends yes, but not inter-dependent intimates. I was involved for two years. One weekend while visiting my family she slept with a coworker, left our home promising to come back and didn’t. In about a month she took our prepaid vacation— and married him— before moving out of our house. And wrote this letter explaining how I was to blame for the relationship end. Over the phone she said she was sorry for the “timing” and that was all. One sentence— no emotion… like she was folding a dinner napkin to be put away. You need to understand that they are amazingly fragile— very defensive. If you trigger a sense of danger— you are in for a ride. She meant allot to me-- and gradually things eroded with abuse. There is allot of emotional danger. Traumatic Bonding is a high possibility.
I really do wish her happiness. When you accept their situation you do feel compassion. And you have to be very strong with your limits. I hope they change the name of the disorder so people aren’t so freaked out about the stigma.
I think you should consider a few things here. You say that you are willing and able to walk away from this relationship if you need to, and you seem to be looking for warning signs as a kind of checklist to use to decide whether to go forward with this relationship. What you need to realize is, you can control your own actions, but you cannot control hers. The way that you can usually end a relationship with someone is not the case here. What I mean is, this is not a disorder where you can just say oh well, goodbye then, don’t talk to me anymore, and expect that she will respect your wishes. This is not someone you want to casually date. You have to be prepared for possible violence against you, false accusations (including criminal accusations), retaliation, stalking, including her talking to your friends, employer, etc. People in this thread have said they actually had to move to get away from people with this disorder. Are you prepared to alter your life in this way if this relationship does not work out?
I think the next step is to find out who told her she has this disorder. If she has been officially diagnosed with this, what led to the diagnosis? Is she in treatment? Does her therapist know she is dating? I agree that if she really has this disorder, you can’t be on guard enough, prepare yourself enough, set up enough boundaries. People with this disorder don’t live within boundaries, they blow them up. If she has been improperly diagnosed then you (and she) need to know that too.
