Wow.
Just finished reading the whole thread, and now I have a few rambling thoughts I’d like to share:
1) What Master Wang-Ka did or didn’t do. It’s alwasy easy to second guess someone, but it’s so very different when you’re actually there. He clearly had real reason to fear bodily harm, and there’s nothing wrong with an impulse to self-preservation. But, having been a victim of mob violence (although not rape) maybe I’m thinking of something the rest of you aren’t.
Clearly, Shellie was raped. Repeatedly. And that is a horrible horrible crime. However, what I gather from the story is that it was just penetration for the most part - the guys were f*cking her without her permission but she wasn’t getting punched, kicked, or physically abused beyond forced sex - and beatings in these situations DO happen. They had crossed one line - rape - but not another - beating. Surely, it would have done Shellie no good whatsoever to be raped AND beaten.
If Wang-Ka had wound up fighting the boys and they had beaten him to a pulp… well, that’s another line they’ve crossed. Some of the other guys who might or might no have developed cold feet at that point might have been hurt, and perhaps some of the worst bullies and sadists would have added fisticuffs to their sport of rape.
Think about - most of the guys were just enjoying the floor show at first. Sure, they probably thought about porking her, but never wound have made the move on their own. Once someone did make the move, though, they unzipped. Likewise, most of those guys didni’t seem inclined to start a fight… but they might have volunteered to finish one. At least one jerk had already convinced himself that “the bitch” wanted to be raped… how it easy would it have been for him to convince himself that “she likes it rough”?
Of course, we’ll never know what might have happened… what I’m saying is that Wang-Ka’s departure might have prevented this from being even uglier and more violent than it already was. The choice he made may have been the best of all possible choices that night. Or, if you prefer, the least of possible evils.
I could get even uglier and point out that men, too, get raped. Trying to break up a gang-raping mob is one potential way for this to occur. After all, if he’s such a p*ssy himself he won’t pork a “bitch” who “wants it” well, maybe he’s a girly-man.
Naw… they would have just beaten him senseless, right? Because all-American Texas boys just don’t kill people by accidently beating them to death, and they’re way too homophobic to stick their dicks into a girly-man p*ssyboy - maybe they’ll just settle for sodomizing him with a mop handle, THEN beat him unconcious…
What I am saying is, as bad as this is, it could have been even worse for either Shellie or Wang-Ka or both. He acted as he thought best at the time. That’s all any of us can do.
2) Regrets and non-regrets. Did some of those guys regret what they had done? Let’s be honest here… some of them might have been so drunk they didn’t remember what they had done. Sure, some of them probably had regrets and are now terrified about their daughters meetings someone just like them at a party with booze flowing freely. I am also convinced that some of them do NOT regret what they did, might well have done it again, and feel that “the bitch” really did want it, and if she didn’t, so f*cking what? There ARE evil, nasty, brutal people out there who truly do not give a damn about others. They enjoy causing pain and time seems not to affect them much.
As the title says - sometimes the bad guys win. They got away with a crime.
3) Telling teens about crime. Ix-nay on telling teens they WILL get caught, WILL go to jail… don’t talk down to them. They know people get away with crimes every day. If you lie to them like that, they’ll toss out everything you say to them as unreliable. YES, SOMETIMES PEOPLE GET AWAY WITH CRIME. Just like sometimes nice, well-behaved girls get raped. Because sometimes the bad guys do win, you have to be up front about risk reduction
4) Risk reduction. In theory, a man should be able to walk down a dark city alley at night with $50 bills stapled to his jacket and be unmolested. We also know that’s not likely to happen. Which is why $50 bills are not used to adorn jackets.
YES, a woman has a right to go out and not be raped. However, you need to be upfront to your daughters that not everyone is a nice, law-abiding citizen, that even some people who seem nice are Bad People, particularly once they get into a group of others.
It’s not fair, but it IS true that certain forms of dress and behavior greatly increase the risk of Something Bad Happening. Getting drunk, for instance, puts you at greater risk for all sorts of things, not just rape. It screws up your judgement. Being the only woman in a crowd of drunken men is a high-risk situation. That’s a lesson that needs to be found in this story. Dancing with wiggle-and-shake moves on a table in front of a crowd of drunken young men is dangerous. That’s why strip clubs employ bouncers to pull overly excited customers off the dancing girls, and some of those girls use a body guard escort when going to their cars after their done working for the night. Or exotic dance places might even put a physical barrier between the customers and the girls. It’s bad for business to have the performers raped and/or beaten up on a regular basis. No, the boys at the party should not have raped Shellie… but they did anyway.
Point out that what Shellie was drinking was not what everyone else was drinking - someone wanted her really, really drunk. Nowadays, with things like “roofies” and other date-rape drugs the danger is still out there, but in new forms. Why do they do this? To make it easier for them to commit a crime. A man who either thinks women are equal to him, or who actually wants to make love rather than rape, does not drug a woman. Men who do this are scum, it’s not an “accident” or the “heat of the moment”, or a “misunderstanding”, or anything like that - it’s premeditated rape. He’s drugging the drink with intent to commit a crime. Let’s face it, if the loser COULD get laid by a sober chick he wouldn’t need to bother with all that, would he? Men who rape are frequently losers - sober, undrugged women won’t give them the time of day because they don’t deserve that much respect. So ask the young boys - are you man enough to get the attention of women who are clear-headed, sober, and in their right minds or are you such fcking losers* you have to steal it?
5) The right of women to move freely in the world. Due to certain activities I enjoy - such as bagpiping and flying - I have frequently found myself to be the only woman in a group of men. This is not ALWAYS a bad situation - I would hate to create gender-segregated world, and I’ve had some wonderful times in these circumstances. Please don’t make your daughters afraid of all men - men are frequently wonderful human beings. I am also, however, aware that there is risk in these situations.
I don’t dress slutty in such situations. That doesn’t mean you have to be unfeminine - even in the macho world of aviation there are plenty of women who are careful about their hair, their manicures, wear pink, and so forth. It is not, however, a time to wear halter tops and short-shorts. Don’t wiggle-and-shake in front of the boys - it’s not nice to tease. Worse yet, Bad People will use it as an excuse to hurt you. Avoid sexual innuendos and the like when speaking. With the bagpiping crowd alcohol made a frequent appearance - well, stay more sober than those around you. Have your own transportation. I’ve probably escaped rape without realizing just by having cab fare to get home on my own. Learn the difference between buying beers in a public restaurant and drinking with a mob of men in a remote and isolated location - and even in a public restaurant it is possible to be gangraped. There’s a lot to be said for exiting early
If things DO start to get out of hand… DON’T encourage the lone other woman in the place (whether she’s smashed out of her gourd or not) to dance wiggle-and-shake on the pool table. If the Bad People start in on her, they’ll likely turn on YOU, too.
Should you call the cops if something like that happens? Yeah, you should - but sometimes that’s not healthy for you. Yeah, dirty little fact of life… if the restaurant with the “available girl” on the flour sacks, the bar with the “wild woman” who 'pulled chain on a football team", or whatever, is owned by, say, drug dealers, or the mafia, or just a bunch of bad seeds who care more about “getting off” (in both senses of the word) than your personal welfare, yeah, you could get hurt if you report the crime. So yes, I’d like you to call the cops, I hope you call the cops… but there are circumstances where I could understand you keeping your mouth shut to save your own skin.
Sure, I move in a world where, as I’ve said, I might be outnumbered 20:1 by men (or even more than that). In general I do alright, have fun, and seldom feel creeped out. However, I do, from time to time, encounter assholes who DO feel that all women are sluts. The older a woman gets, the better she (usually) gets at spotting and avoiding these jerks. A teen girl, however, doesn’t have the years of experience in dealing with and extricating herself from these situations. That’s why they’re so very vulnerable, and why predators actually seek them out.
Some time back, I posted a thread in the Pit about someone sexually harassing the female help at my local airport. Funny, the guy never put a move on me - well, yeah, he knew I’d knock his block off. I’d see right through him, recognize him for the sad sack loser he is, and he wouldn’t have a chance of getting what he wanted with me. Young women at the front desk… they’re so sweet, so innocent… so naive (he thought). SURELY he could take advantage of them… Well, in that case not - just because a girl is 19 doesn’t mean she’s stupid, or ignorant that there are jerks out there. Would this skanky jerk participate in a gang rape? Well, I don’t think he’d start such a thing, but I’m sure as heck convinced he’d help finish the job… and justify to himself later with no problem. He’s a *user * and a loser.
Sure, I don’t get as much sexual attention as when I was 18 – my tits just don’t stand up the way they used to, ya know? But it’s not just that I look older – I look wiser, too. I don’t look like an easy mark anymore, so the predators tend to look elsewhere. It can be very heady for a young girl to be the center of attention, to learn that yes, her body DOES have a very powerful effect on men… she also needs to know when that focus of attention is a BAD thing, and a danger.
Girls need to understand what behaviors on their part increase or decrease their risk of danger. Whether that’s “fair” or not is, on a certain level, irrelevant. It’s reality.
I’m not sure I’m expressing myself as well as I’d like here, but that’s the best I can do.