Yes, this happened to me once when I went to a lady Notary (she was about 70 too) & her son
was in the office (same type of guy you describe ratty). Anyway, he was getting very aggressive at
me & his face was getting pretty angry so his mother went to the phone & called the cops herself,
who came right away & talked to him so I could get out of the store.
I wonder why your neighbors keep their son at home?
What about having the neighbors pay for a taller fence?
I realize the mom was defensive & angry on the phone, but chances are they’ll be willing to cooperate, especially if the cops come around to chat.
You could write them a nice letter, saying that you’d like to continue to be neighborly, and work out some things together to prevent anyone getting hurt…
Meanwhile, you might want to get some pepper spray (or whatever is legal in your area - the cops can tell you) and carry it with you when you walk past their house or go out in the yard by yourself. At least until some things change and you feel safe. Yes, it may seem paranoid but it could really save you.
Good luck -
Maybe I missed it in here, but did you ever find out what exactly is wrong with their son? Other then the he’s “not right”. Do they know? My concern is that the son has not got the treatment he may need and things seem to be getting worse.(Don’t mean to freak you out more). If he was never diagnosed, his parents don’t even have a clue what he might be cappable of. How are they going to protect you?
I would hate to not feel safe at my own home.
I would also suggest not only talking to the police, to see what you can do, visit your local hospital mental heath care facilitiy and talk with doctors there to get a better understanding of what is going on and what you can do.
I know that other Dopers have said this, but I will add my voice to the choir. You are doing the right thing in going to the police. Your first obligation is to protect yourself and your family. I would be literally sick if your puppies wound up being destroyed because they were protecting you!
To be honest, I would not stop with one call. I would harass the police every time there was an incident, perhaps to the point of having a restraining order. This will not solve the problem, but if all of this is on record it will make the case strong if (God forbid) anything serious happens. I know that this may mean that you are on very bad terms with your neighbors, but to be honest, they are in denial and being horribly irresponsible.
Good luck, we will be rooting for you!
If he’s lonely-I’m sure there are community centers for the disabled that he can visit-free of charge.
I think you’re doing the right thing. Keep us posted.
Also-have you talked to any of your other neighbors? See if they’ve had any problems with him.
Good luck.
I’d be freaked out too.
“Problems” in the past…shudder
I think you’re doing the right thing by lodging a complain with the police. I’m not sure what they can (or will) do, but it’s good to have a record of these things nonetheless.
I would also recommend you change your way of dealing directly with him. You’re letting him control the situation and not indicating to him that his behavior is wrong/uncalled for/not appreciated. I know it’s a difficult situation and you’re scared, but you should be firm with him and tell him exactly why his behavior is inappropriate.
His mom doesn’t seem to have a problem controlling his behavior (when she’s around) and you should feel just as comfortable telling him, “No!” as you would a child or dog. (Not that he’s a child or animal, he’s probably just as trainable as them though.) Don’t feel that because of his diminished intellectualy capacity, you can’t reprimand him. You’re not going to hurt his feelings and it’s likely that you won’t even embarrass him.
Mentally retarded people have a sex drive like anyone else and I’m guessing that most parents neglect the “Birds and Bees” discussion with them, thinking it’s not an issue. They have to be taught what is appropriate behavior, whether they’re throwing food in a restaurant or grabbing the neighbor’s breast.
Now, for two personal anecdotes.
My sister in law is mentally retarded and severly epileptic, though educable. Just last Saturday she was caught in her group home with another resident…he was naked and she was half-naked. My MIL freaked right the hell out until my husband (who has done all sorts of advocacy) reminded her that SIL wasn’t being abused by a superior, she was willingly consorting with a peer. Granted, it was not an ideal situation, but why should it be so suprising? Neither one of them could understand why they were in trouble and SIL was at a total loss when she had to have a rape kit done at the local hospital.
My husband’s 38y.o. cousin is severly retarded (though trainable) and only mildly epileptic. I was having a similar situation as you, except he didn’t say anything. He followed me around the house leering and wanting a LOT of hugs. I finally complained to my husband and MIL when I caught him fondling himself while staring.
My MIL tried the interception route while my husband gave me the advice I gave you above. I worried that I would embarrass him (or worse his parents) but hubby insisted I take care of it myself, that I couldn’t let him intimidate me.
A private “Don’t follow me Michael!” got him off my back, but did nothing for the hugs. A public “No Mike, no more hugs! Not now, not ever!” did the trick and he hasn’t bugged me now for three years. His parents didn’t even flush.
Anyway, good luck and please keep us updated.
PS, I agree that he needs to have some sort of facility for daily activities. He must be bored out of his skull. And his mom must have a masochistic streak.
You have a divine right to be comfortable on your property. If he is leering at you and making you uncomfortable, he is sexually harassing you. This could be another thing to mention to the cops.
And I agree that he needs something to do! If he is making you apprehensive to go outside, then he is controlling you, even if he isn’t thinking about it.
I don’t know about that. Is sexual harrassment even a crime? I thought sexual harrassment is a civil court thing rather than criminal offense.
I don’t think you could call it stalking either since he lives next door and doesn’t follow her around town. She said that he’s always at the fence and is worried about him coming onto her property so it hasn’t even escalated to trespassing.
But assault, there’s definitely assault.
You all are being so wonderful and supportive, and I don’t even know any of you! Thank you so much for everything. You’ve all really made me feel a lot better about this situation, and given me a lot of resolve. Talking to friends in RL has been a mixed bag, as I mentioned in the OP, but I’m getting a lot of level-headedness here, so thank you.
And now what the local police have to say: This guy has a record of exposing himself in public. The last incident occurred about 4 years ago, before I moved in. Since then, no trouble, at least not officially. (BTW, are the police allowed to give this information out? I sorta know one of the local cops through a friend’s mom, and he’s the one that told me. I’d hate to get him in trouble for giving out this info.) His parents have been cautioned about his behavior, and the guy has spent some time in a group-home. Why he isn’t there now, I have no idea. I filed a formal complaint, and was basically told there’s nothing else the police can do, although if I’d like, they can send an officer over to talk to the parents. (My local PD has no community program- I live in a pretty rural area.) I told them not to bother- this probably won’t do any good, because the parents know they can’t control their kid, and having some officer tell them about it is probably not going to change anything.
On the upside, I spent a good three hours outside today and no appearance of the guy. (Granted, he doesn’t show up every single time I go into the yard- about two or three times a week, mainly, hence the “will he bother me today or not?” fear.) Maybe the phone call accomplished something? At least the police know, and if I have to press charges, this will strengthen my case.
As for the exact nature of his disability, I’m still in the dark. I hate to phrase it this way, but he looks normal. He does not have the classic facial features of certain forms of mental retardation, such as Down’s, trisomy 13, or FAS. And diagnosing him on just a few behavioral instances is probably impossible. Suffice it to say, something is wrong.
I still feel pretty bad about my neighbors, but after this woman’s attitude on the phone with me, I have a little less sympathy. My take on this situation can now be summed up by the terribly insensitive phrase I yelled at the phone after I got hung up on: “I’m sorry your kid is fucked up, lady, but don’t make it my problem!” :eek:
I feel like a jerk, but what can I do? I have a lot of pepper spray “bear repellent” that I picked up while at Denali N’tl. Park. Would this work?
And I know what I see on TV, but can anybody tell me what the legal ramifications could be of my dogs attacking someone who was attempting to injure me? On my own property? And the attacker with a history of this behavior? And my complaint on file? Could by dogs still be destroyed, in spite of all this? 'Cause no matter how crazy or sad this sounds, my dogs are like my kids, and I’d go to jail before I’d let something happen to them.
Thanks again for all the support. I love this MB!
You should get some people strength pepper spray. The stuff they sell for use against bears is incredibly strong and can cause permanent damage. But I would definitely get some kind of personal defense spray.
IANAD, but, judging by what you’ve said, and the experiences that I have with more than a few people that fit the same description(the old neighbor I mentioned above, my ex-husband’s uncle, one of my parent’s neighbors, who I grew up with, and a few of the residents I cared for during my health care stint), it sounds as though this guy may be suffering from the long term affects of severe drug abuse earlier in his life.
That may not be the case, at all, just thougt I’d throw that possibility out here, since I’ve seen it before, and many times in those cases the families are extremely defensive, and in major denial, because they hate to have to face the fact that it was their own child/family member who did the damage to themselves(and for parents, it makes them feel as though they failed them when they were younger).
I don’t know that knowing for sure what his disability is will do anything to help your situation, so I wouldn’t worry too much about finding out, just concentrate on doing what you must in order to protect yourself, and keep yourself safe.
I’m glad to hear that you talked with the authorities, and have filed a complaint. You may feel guilty, but you’re doing the right thing.
~V
That’s the first thing I thought of. Living in Grizzly Country (at least of the lower 48), I have experience with this stuff. It’s for real.
My other thought is that, were he going to grab you, he could have grabbed you in many places…your arm, your neck, your hand, etc. He chose to grab you in a sexual place. That was deliberate. Don’t make too little out of this.
I used to work in a psych hospital that had a lot of closed head injury patients. These folk often looked totally normal, but could become dangerous and violent at the drop of a hat. If thats what is wrong here, then you need to be very carefull. Impulse control is a major problem, things that you think wouldnt set them off will. THe pepper spray suggestion is the best so far, get a reputable brand, preferably whatever your local Police are using, and keep it with you. This is good advice regardless of who your neighbors are. Remeber, peper spray will temporarily blind an attacker, even one that is so far gone that they dont feel pain. If you have to use it, get the eyes, then get the hell out of there and call the cops.
Ratty, IANAL so I can’t answer any questions about your dogs. Maybe you should post a thread dealing specifically with THAT issue in GQ, linking back to this one for reference.
I’m happy your meeting with the police went well and offered you some insight.
Be safe.
Sue
[hijack]
About visible appearance…
When I was pregnant, I insisted on genetic testing for my SIL as she had never even had a genetic workup done and I thought it somewhat suspicious that two cousins would both be mentally retarded with seizure disorders. The ILs were sorta insulted, to put it mildly, but I digress.
SIL had a full workup and they measured everything from her ears to her toes. The verdict? No known genetic disorder. It made everyone happy and we have a lovely, healthy little girl.
Beyond some problems with my SILs gums (from long term medication), her constant eye-fluttering (petite mal seizures) and the fact that she spends a lot of her time in a wheelchair (shorter fall from chair to floor when she has a seizure) she looks perfectly normal. Michael also, looks totally normal with the exception of a limp.
[/hijack]
Near where I live, there was a family who had a son much like you’re describing. They’d tried pretty much all the alternatives which were open to them at the time- not many, actually. Not capable of attending school, too violent for any kind of institution to want to take on, and too big for most anyone to control him, he lived out his days on a chain on his front porch, coming in for meals and bed. At first, it was a dog’s chain, but as he got bigger and stronger, he was carrying around a logging chain which had been welded to a shackle around his waist. People knew him as the Jay Street Monster. Nobody knew much else about him. I had a friend who lived in the house next door, when I visited, the Monster would run to the limits of his chain, snarling and clawing at me as I walked by. This was the late 70’s, early 80’s, he was probably fiftyish at that time. I think without the chain he could have killed people easily. Like Lindyhopper says, don’t make too little of this. The pepper spray is a must, the taller fence is a great idea, the chain , for the Jay Street Monster, was the best alternative. As much sympathy as anyone has for the disabled, being disabled is not an excuse for antisocial behavior. Tell his parents to control him or remove him from the premesis to a place safer for you and for him.
b.
I spent 6 years working on the violent ward at a state school for the mentally retarded, and I can tell you that an attitude of “He’s harmless, just ignore it.” can get you hurt. Is it his fault? No. Can he control it? Maybe with training, but it doesn’t sound like he’s getting any.
Your first duty is to protect yourself and your family, and if that means pissing off the neighbors, well tough. My advice would be to contact your state or local Mental Health/Mental Retardation authority and report this guy to them. State laws vary, but it may be possible to get this guy involuntarily committed long enough to be evaluated. Perhaps they can recommend a program or even a medication for him that the parents are unaware of. It sounds like you have enough to have him declared a threat to himself or others, which is generally enough to get the involuntary commission.
The reason I suggest finding out what his exact disability is, is so you can better understand what you need to do to protect yourself. Perhaps knowing more specifics, like some that you have found out(exposing himself in public) will assist you in your quest for safety in your own yard.
Not sure about what would happen if the dogs attacked him after he attacked you. Just make sure you report everything just in case something does happen, the more ammo you have the better. Don’t forget that him standing there shouting things is also an attack, be it mental/verbal this time. Keep record of it all just in case you need it. Maybe ask you police friend if he knows, or knows someone that might be able to help you with regards to the dogs.
You were a little concerned about pissing off your neighbors…aren’t you a little pissed off that you have to be paranoid and cautious in your own dang yard/house?
I hope you can find a solution and things don’t get worse. Don’t back down, it’s your life too.
You’re doing the right thing - and you shouldn’t feel like a jerk for trying to protect yourself. You’ve been physically assaulted (in fact, groping your breast could be considered sexual assault), and had your privacy invaded, and his parents are unwilling to admit that there’s a problem or do anything to prevent such incidents in the future. You’ve been backed into a corner and you’re doing what you need to do. This guy could easily become violent instead of merely disturbing.
I’m sorry to hear that your relationship with your neighbors has taken a down-turn because of what has happened, but that’s their fault, not yours. You were trying to work with them to avoid any police involvement and the mother was unreasonable. Her lack of concern with this threat to your safety is her choice, so you have no reason to feel bad about anything you need to do to protect yourself.
As for your dogs, if he ever enters your yard and is attacked by the dogs, you’ll probably have problems with his parents claiming the dogs attacked him without provocation (they seem to have a well-developed blind spot concerning his behavior), and they’ll probably try to have the dogs destroyed. You need to make sure you file a complaint with the police every time he behaves inappropriately toward you in order to establish that the dogs would be protecting you, not going out looking for a poor, innocent, harmless guy to maul. They’d probably try to say he wasn’t in your yard at the time, too, so be prepared for a fight if this should ever happen. It’ll probably boil down to your word against theirs, so you’ll want to have documentation of his behavior in the form of police reports.
You need to take measures to protect yourself, both physically and legally, just in case things deteriorate. Sorry to be such a downer, but you’re in kind of a bad situation. Here’s hoping it never gets worse.
[serious]
It’s your yard, you shouldn’t be afraid to hang out in it. You did the right thing. Someone grabbing you without provocation, regardless of the part of the body in question, is not something you should allow. Calling the cops is appropriate in this situation, and the mother seems to have a sore spot about her son’s behavior. The cops/court will be much more objective.
[/serious]
Try contacting your county’s social services. Given that they can legally forceably commit someone who is a threat to either themselves or others (and I think he’s proven this with the assault on you), it would probably be ideal to get them involved. (Besides that, there may be issues of neglect from his parents, and in either case it’s their job to get involved.) If you can’t find social services in the government pages of your phone book, ask the police department, and/or the county sheriff’s department. These agencies necessarily have to work together pretty often.
Also, I agree, make a report on everything this guy does. Utilize your friend in the PD. 
Make sure they have a running paper trail on this guy’s behaviour. It may seem silly to report every time he stares over your fence, but you definitely want to be sure the police have ON RECORD that there’s a pattern. If something worse should (god forbid) happen later, it will make your position stronger.
Take care of yourself.