Wow, if it really went down that way, Sondheim needs to grow up and realize:
If the people you brought to your show don’t say anything afterwards, they probably are being polite.
When you take someone to your show and buy them dinner, they don’t become a prostitute who has to fellatiate your ego in return.
I’ve had people drive 45 minutes and pay full price to get in so they can shout “You Suck” the entire show. If Sondheim can’t take the criticism, he should have been a janitor.
It seems that the argument isn’t about criticism, or how to handle criticism. It seems that the argument is that Sondheim’s friends didn’t say anything at all. They didn’t offer any feedback, good or bad, not even a pithy remark like “A few of the jokes were funny,” or “The story had some real heart,” or even, “That chick who played Gymnasia was smokin’ hot!” Sondheim may have acted like a jerk afterwards, but then again, who knows what he really said.
And as I said in the quoted post. If the people you invited to the show didn’t say anything, you should realize that they’re probably being polite. If you press them to tell you what they really thought, I don’t think you’ve got much to complain about if they do. People don’t want to lie to you, and Sondheim seems to demand they do.
Ha! Yeah, call me crazy but I’m pretty sure that the multitalented, multiple Tony-award-winning genius managed to find the right career for himself.
Sondheim didn’t study under/work with the likes of Oscar Hammerstein II, Leonard Bernstein, Jerome Robbins and Jules Styne without understanding how to take criticism. By now he’s earned the right to upbraid anyone the fuck he wants if they don’t understand how to behave on opening nights.
Jesus. This is a forum where folks regularly call out those who perform minor annoyances like standing in the wrong checkout lane at the supermarket “goat-felching cuntlapping shit-eaters who should die smothered in a vat of their dead mother’s steaming excrement.”* I’d imagine you’d understand hyperbole!
All right, Stephen; when you ask me what I thought, I promise to respond with “I absolutely LOVED it!!!” But you have to promise NOT to ask “What did you love MOST about it?”
Deal?
Look, the people involved were probably paralyzed about what the hell to possibly say to “OMG Stephen fucking Sondheim”.
Y’know, it may not even necessarily be seen as “upbraiding”… How about: Sondheim may have realized what was happening and called them a posteriori to tell them, “hey guys, next time this happens with anyone, this is what’s expected of you, don’t embarrass yourself with someone else (it ain’t happenning again with ME)”. Which of course only compounded their mortification and put them on the defensive.
Like I said above, I can buy that this is one of those conventional expectations that “everybody should know”. But that doesn’t mean I fully agree and apparently it is not universal. Maybe we should include a “social conventions people assume you already know of” unit in the school curriculum.
You can be very talented at something and still not have the disposition necessary to work in the field.
I think these guys knew perfectly well how to behave: If you can’t say something nice, don’t say anything at all. Maybe I’m from a different world, but the musicians I work with will tell you they liked it without being asked, if they did actually like it. If they don’t say anything, it’s probably a safe bet you didn’t get their motor running. Somewhere along the line, Sondheim should have picked this up, and understood what their silence meant. If musical theater wants to work under different rules than the rest of the arts, they should hand out a pamphlet.
Honestly, I would avoid opening that door as much as possible. I got a degree in theater and I have critiqued and been critiqued up one side and down the other. A lot of people but especially baby theater people think that negative criticism=discerning criticism. If you can’t go to a 2 hour long production and find even one or two things you like…well, there’s a problem but I don’t think it’s the show. I mean, I’m a critical ass and I will complain about that poorly aimed leko all night, but I can pretty much assume there’s going to be a line I’ll like or a costume or something that I can say afterwards that I enjoyed.
Wow. It really takes some pretty big cojones to imply Sondheim doesn’t or didn’t have the disposition necessary to work in the field. He’s managed just fine for about 65 years now, but I guess he’s not up to your standards of professionalism.
No ‘maybe’ about it. Very few people live in the world Sondheim lives in. And I think it’s safe to say that neither you, nor I, nor anyone else on this board, dwells there. The guy wrote Sweeney Todd, Company, A Little Night Music, Sunday in the Park with George, Into the Woods (among many others), and the lyrics to two of the greatest musicals in the history of theater, West Side Story and Gypsy. If he’s become more prickley/sensitive in his old age, I say we grant him a few foibles.
Sure, or hey, or maybe he could explain it by telling some numbnuts ingrate over the phone instead? LIKE HE DID.
Yeah, they’re so big it’s hard to avoid sitting on them. That’s why I can take someone going out of their way and paying good money to insult me during the show, and still go out and do it again the next night. Plus, I do it without whining half as much as Sondheim seems to have done after he went around panning for compliments and came up empty. I suppose he’s lucky he’s successful, because I doubt many would think he has a point if he wasn’t.
If he doesn’t have the social skills to cope with people not complimenting him on demand: no, he does not meet my standards of professionalism. Lots of other successful/award winning/wealthy artists don’t meet them either, so he’s not alone. I don’t know why you seem to think success would excuse his demanding people lie to him. Success doesn’t justify any sort of behavior other than paying your bills on time, really. Otherwise, it’s pretty much irrelevant to the issue. I know successful musicians that I won’t willingly work with specifically because they’re socially impossible. I don’t know him, but he might be in that group if I did.
scabby, my friend - I think we are good here. To be sure, from a *professional craft *standpoint, if you create a work, you need to be able to shoulder the criticism, or else don’t put it out there for public consumption.
But this feels different, for two reasons.
They were his guests; if you are a guest of someone you behave politely - sometimes, it is just that simple. If the host asks what you thought of their play, their music, their food, their evening - you say you thought it was great, per Miss Manners.
Sondheim is an established artist of the highest caliber within his field. If I was invited to a Paul McCartney concert by Sir Paul himself, and then he walked up to me after coming offstage to asked what I thought, you can bet I would say some version of “that was great!!” Why? Because he is *Paul McCartney *- who am I to comment on his work in that setting? My opinion is of no import in that situation and to think otherwise is silliness.
So - should an artist be able to take criticism? Yes. And should guests be respectful of a host - and if that host is a top-tier artist, be ready to reply graciously? Yes.
There are a number of different situations in which someone will appear to ask for your opinion on something, but they are not, in fact, interested in your opinion. They’re looking for reassurance. Some examples include:
Does my ass look fat in these jeans?
Isn’t my baby just the cutest thing?
How did you like my Broadway play?
If you can’t figure out the proper response to these questions, life is going to be very bumpy for you.
But no one is saying “you shouldn’t be polite.”
This topic is like the fable of the blind men and the elephant: different people are seeing entirely different things in it. (True for most everything, perhaps, but this thread is a particularly clear example of that human tendency.)
For me the issue is NOT ‘should one be polite to artists right after experiencing their work?’ (My answer to that one is ‘yes, one should be polite–find something nice to say. Save the analysis for later.’)
For me this issue–at least the issue presented in the story as it’s told in the opening post–is about the legitimacy of an artist commanding that viewers of his work speak a particular sentence to him. And for me that command is not legitimate or respectable or reasonable.
Sure: be polite. Say something positive about the work. Note, however, that Saying Something Positive is not the same thing as Saying That You Loved It. It just isn’t. One is ‘finding a nice thing to say’ and the other is ‘misrepresenting your own taste and judgment.’ The first is a reasonable thing to expect in polite society; the second is an unwarranted intrusion.
“Being polite” is not synonymous with “giving in to a command to lie about your own values.”
You are a guest at someone’s house for dinner. They prepare a meal and clearly went to effort. At the end, as folks are moving to the sitting room, one of them asks “how was dinner?”
To me there is only ONE way to answer that question: It was great, thank you; perhaps with a notable comment about 1 or 2 things to make it clear you were paying attention.
How is this situation any different?
If dinner was actually horrible – just godawful nauseating – I’m not going to lie and say, “It was great.”
I’ll duck it, and say, “Well, thank you for inviting me.”
(Usually, my hosts are far more critical of their dinners than their guests could ever be. “I’m really sorry to be serving you this horrible stuff…” And it’s fine! So I say so.)
(Jack Nicholson: “You can’t handle the truth!”)
I keep saying that I’m not arguing against saying something nice.
I will go on saying it. There will come a moment—and I have faith in this!—when some readers, at least, understand that in all my posts after the first in this thread, I’ve specifically mentioned (or at least implied) that saying something nice is a good thing to do.
When that moment occurs, those posters will realize that I’ve repeatedly stated that I’m not arguing against saying something nice. In fact, I’ve stated that I’m not arguing against saying something nice many, many times in this thread.
It will be a delightful (and memorable) moment when some are finally able to comprehend a fact about this thread: that I’ve repeatedly stated that making a polite remark is a good thing to do.
…the distinction that is apparently impossible to see for some, seems to be between ‘saying something nice’ and ‘following a command to say “I loved it.”’
‘Saying something nice’ and ‘saying “I loved it”’ are not synonymous. They are not the same thing. They differ fundamentally.
‘Saying something nice’ involves showing that the speaker has paid attention, and is willing to look for something positive in the work just experienced. If the speaker has taken the time to find something the speaker genuinely likes, and mentions it to the creator with sincere sentiments, then that speaker has been polite (and kind).
Saying “I loved it” is something else altogether. “I loved it” is a statement of the speaker’s own values, taste, and judgment. To demand that the speaker misrepresent his or her reaction to the work is unfair and unreasonable.
This is the distinction that (from the evidence in this thread) some posters understand quite well, but other posters simply can’t see.
We may have to leave it at that.
Well, perhaps we expect different things of our guests and audiences. If I invited people to dinner, and asked what they thought at the end, I would want an honest answer. If what I cooked was acceptable, I would expect a polite “It was good”. If what I cooked was great in their opinion, more accolades would be in order. If they genuinely didn’t like it, I would expect them to tell me so as politely as possible. The easiest reason for this is that I’d like them to enjoy themselves next time.
The point being: If I didn’t want the answer, I wouldn’t have asked the question. I wouldn’t want to be lied to about my performance when I ask, anywhere. Not on stage, not in the bedroom, not in the kitchen, not at work. I know some people think they have to be universally positive in these situations, but I was raised to think that behaving that way is counterproductive.
Even in social situations, I follow the advice of Bill Moyers’ dad: “If you can’t tell the truth, don’t lie.” I’ve been asked the “does my butt look big in ______” question many times. My answer is almost always “No bigger than it usually looks, and I’m after it all the time, aren’t I?”, and I’ve been happily married for more than 15 years.
I am not sure if the difference in expectation is one of class, culture or what, but it does seem that there are different expectations of behavior when someone goes asking for compliments.
Oh, and I missed the edit window, but all babies look largely like Dwight D. Eisenhower to me. When people ask if their baby is cute, I tell them “All babies look like Dwight D. Eisenhower to me.”
It’s a little socially weird, but it’s less so than lying.
Creative people thrive on feedback, doesn’t matter if it’s good or bad. Negative feedback tells you where you can improve next time, while positive feedback is an automatic ego-stroker (and who doesn’t like that?) Even phony positive feeback that you can see right through is better than NO feedback at all. The worst review you can give to a creative person’s work is absolute silence, or saying something along the lines of, “I have no response to that.” Otherwise, what’s the point of expressing yourself?
Well, there’s always that, too.
For what it’s worth–I getcha. Completely.