Sure, it may be only one out of 100, but if that one lady meets the job requirements, then she should be allowed to do it, it without fear of harassment, discrimination, or any other repercussions from her colleagues. Really, that is all there is to it. Why is it so difficult for you to understand?
Thanks for the new point of view, **SenorBeef **- none of the other SDMB internet armchair warriors have presented exactly this arrangement of “don’t you understand? We’re talking about…[insert descriptions of how very hard and manly it is to be one of the almost 3,000 active Navy SEALs and why a frail woman just isn’t built for it]”
When females begin to apply in 2016 maybe there will be 3,003 SEALs by 2017. And those will be 3 women I would love to see you demonstrate your superiority to in any physical challenge of your choosing. That is, if you can get your beer gut out from behind the monitor and the involuntary farts you emit during the competition don’t drive off the refs.
Your points have already been refuted - and there is the small matter of Naval command, SEALs, ex-SEALs and SEAL trainers believing that if women are allowed to apply they will pass the training. They are already thinking past that, and trying to solve the problem of these women coming into a culture of machismo and sexism, but whether or not they will cut it physically as SEALS is a forgone conclusion to all who actually are in a position to make that judgement.
But as I understand it, they’re not being asked to compete against each other, they’re being asked to complete an objective test; the same one that the men are being asked to complete.
So, if a woman passes that test, they are by definition capable and well-suited are they not?
Besides, even a SEAL team needs someone to do the cooking, sew on missing buttons and make the bullets all nice and shiny.
This is stupid. How can anything I said in any remote way be construed as personal bragging? I’m not an elite athlete. I’m nowhere near being a SEAL. I can’t play in the NFL either. I couldn’t outrun a woman marathon runner either. So what? When did I remotely imply I could? What does this have to do with me? I would have the same opinion if I were a woman.
This is all a straw man, and an ad hominem. You’re not comfortable refuting the actual arguments and dealing with the simple, obvious, yet somehow elusive fact that men and women are different physically and the top of the bell curve in anything involving speed or strength is dominated by men. So it’s easier to attack the person, to say “oh, fatty, YOU think you’re better than any woman, huh?” which is an easier target to attack. No, I don’t, and I never said anything that even vaguely comes close to saying I do.
I’m just not seeing the downside of allowing women to compete. Either they are capable of passing the tests and the US increases it’s pool of SEAL candidates or they are not capable and won’t pass but the government looks good as it secures a reputation of providing equal opportunity.
To all the naysayers, forget that women in general will not pass (hell, men in general won’t complete that course). If one specific woman can and does complete the course is there a valid reason she should not be admitted to the SEALS?
Not all all I just added a comparison to you because it was fun (and chances are ego is part of your sexism even if you don’t realize it) Your statements about the top elite forces not being meant to be a showcase of equality betray your sexist views even without claiming that you, yourself, could compete with the female applicants.
All the other points you mention have already been refuted in this very thread so what’s the point in going back over them?
Nobody disputes that due to the physical requirements of the job there will be fewer qualified females than males overall. But only an idiot would dispute that there won’t be any qualified females. And the military command, who works with and reviews the performance of the existing female armed forces are quite sure that there are enough qualified females to open SEAL training to those who want to apply. It is a little bit late in the game to come back with “But don’t you understand men can lift more than women?”
And to be there when someone needs to have a good cry after demolishing a bridge or taking out an archvillian.
This is a bullshit fallacious personal attack. If I make the observation that all of the world’s top powerlifters have been men, am I then saying that I, personally, am a world-class powerlifter and no woman could defeat me? Of course not. So why is this any different? A woman could recognize that there’s a reason men and women are put into different leagues and different competitions for the pinnacle of sports. This is a factual, obvious statement that’s only somehow objectionable to the retarded GRRRRL POWER faction who like to live in a fantasy land that defies biology and the obvious.
People in this thread are acting as if men have no competitive edge in matters of high end athletics and strength. That point is not at all substantiated.
Let’s see if this actually goes anywhere. It could be just a PR stunt at this stage. Someone posted an article earlier about no female Marines qualifying infantry officer school, and that’s a day at the park compared to BUDS. I very much doubt that there are women who would pass BUD/S if held to the same standards as men. I’m not saying that no women have the mental toughness or anything like that. I’m saying that it’s an enormous physical stress of the sort that the anatomy of the female body is at a disadvantage compared to the male one, and if you only want the best of the best, that’s a problem.
The assumption of exceptional women who can compete with men at the highest levels also doesn’t play out in the world of athletics. Surely there must be some freakish, top of the bell curve women who could play linebacker in the NFL? Surely some woman could start for a bad team in the NBA, right? Where are all of these exceptional women? Surely the fame and fortune they’d find as even mediocre players in these sports would be a good motivator. Where are the women tennis players who can play against the toughest men?
I feel like I’m arguing for the most self-evident, obvious point ever, but there are some people out there who believe so hard in equality that they take it to levels where reality becomes irrelevant.
Did you overlook the dozens of posts that have answered this invalid argument by reminding us that SEALs don’t compete with each other, they work together?
There is a set of physical requirements to even be admitted to basic training - do X pull ups, and Y push ups, and Z sit ups, run X miles carrying Z weight, etc. The requirements aren’t being adjusted for female applicants. So pretty much by definition any females who make the cut have made the cut.
Yeah and they indicated they had been applying for over 2 years when it has only been open to female applicants for a few months. When presented honestly that argument isn’t a very good indicator of anything.
Time will tell.
Except, again, male and female SEALs aren’t competing with each other - they are working together. That point is still moot.
The entire point of a selective process like the SEALs is to isolate the best possible candidates. So yes, it is a competition. There are many times more people who want to be SEALs than who qualify to test themselves, and who eventually pass. Whether they compete with each other individually is irrelevant. There are around 1600 NFL players in the world, and only men have the right stuff to be amongst them. There are around 3000 SEALs, and I suspect it’s the same deal.
This is probably a PR stunt. The question is - are they going to really put women to the test, or are they going to try to find a way to make them get through no matter what?
If the former, then it’s commendable. If the latter, it’s not. Fortunately, I have it on good authority from the OP that some women can make it through.
You and others are seriously overestimating how hard it actually is to become a SEAL. There is no question it is a brutally challenging job suited to only the most physically fit and determined individuals in the Navy, but they aren’t supernaturally so. There are only about 320,000 total active duty in the Navy and almost 3,000 of them are SEALs - 1 in 100. But not everyone in the Navy applies. Every year about 1,000 apply and approximately 250 make it through BUDS. If the same exact program is open to female applicants there will be female SEALs. There is no question about this point among all those in a position to make that statement with authority.
There is also a lot more to it than passing the physical endurance requirements. It doesn’t make for as exciting of a youtube video but an equal part of the assessment is based on ASVABscores; i.e. mental sharpness and ability to learn. Word knowledge, arithmetic, reasoning, general science, verbal expression are all skills that are required.
And no, they still aren’t competing with each other. There are only 250 out of 1,000 accepted because that is how many made the cut. It isn’t a question of many people competing for a few coveted seats, and others who are qualified being declined - if 350 were qualified they would be glad to have them all.
Crazyhorse, do you enjoy [del]beating your head against a brick wall[/del] arguing against bigots, or is someone forcing you to do this? Do you actually hold out some hope that [del]you’ll eventually break through the impenetrable brick wall[/del] you’ll be able to convince people like SenorBeef that their opinions are worthless pieces of shit?
I prefer to take the Richard Dawkins approach to these sorts of issues, for why he doesn’t debate creationists. Arguing against them gives them some sort of credibility, that they are worth arguing against. Let SenorBeef think he has won because we refuse to debate him, it’s entertaining. That’s what I think anyway.
It’s almost a self-parody position to claim that someone is a bigot because they acknowledge that men and women have different physiology. It’s the height of liberal douchebaggery, the sort of nonsensical grrrrl power feminism that makes people automatically recoil and sets back the cause.
it’s interesting that you pull out the Dawkins vs creationists argument. It’s funny because you don’t realize that the sides are the reverse of what you suggest. I’m the one actually laying forth arguments and using real world evidence and examples, meanwhile you are doing nothing but repeating over and over again that I’m wrong and insulting me. You are absolutely the blind, ideological true believer in this scenario, making personal attacks rather than addressing my arguments, ignoring reality, and just repeating yourself in the hopes that it somehow validates your point
If it were that ONLY, no.
Noting their are physiological differences is bigoted in this context - because it just doesn’t fucking matter. It’s an irrelevant side show, except to note a lower percentage of women may pass. Using it as an argument to deny that ANY women could pass or that you have to rig the system to let them pass IS bigoted.
The point has already been repeatedly made in this thread - there aren’t some limited number of spots available to be filled. If a woman can pass the standards set, that’s all that’s required.
It’s not like the NBA. There are fewer than 400 NBA roster spots. Sure, those will all go to men (though some argue Brittney Griner is better than a lot of the bench players). There are NOT only 400 spots for SEAL training.
If we just wanted all basketball players who could pass a battery of physical trials (shoot X number of free throws in 1 minute, run Y suicides in 5 minutes, vertical leap of Z inches, etc), we’re going to have more than 400 players and some them might even (GASP) be women.
We know, and we’ve been telling the OP that.
:rolleyes: If you read the thread more carefully, you’ll see that everybody here is acknowledging without demur that women are on average smaller and weaker than men. So naturally they’re going to be on average inferior to men at the top end of physical achievement.
Should women be allowed to compete to enter the program? Sure, why not? Just as with small or scrawny men, although to a greater degree, most of them will not have the physical ability to meet the requirements, and they’ll fail. So fine, fail them. If an exceptional member of this category makes it through the training, then fine, they’re a SEAL.
Is any aspect of this worth Pitting? Only to the drunk and the stupid, apparently.
A-HEM. :mad: 