I am glad to see your post. I am an experiencer also and can relate to what you say. Good luck.
No, there was no one there to say I was dead. I was killing myself. It wasn’t something I invited everyone over to share with me.
Try this -
I have lived. I know alive.
I knew the opposite of it when I experienced it.
So will you, someday.
Do you trust yourself to “know”?
I know my hands are on the keyboard.
I know I died.
I don’t need a doctor’s statement to make that truth to me anymore than I need someone else to tell me that my fingers move over these keys.
I really don’t want this to get all snarky. It is important to me that I am more than a piece of meat that consumes, procreates and talks. It is not important to everyone.
Wrong or mistaken or right doesn’t really matter. It’s an exchange of perceived information between two beings. I can only see it my way but I can listen to and understand your way.
We might all learn something in the exchange.
It’s something to think about, not something to fight about.
I’ll take it!
Thank you for the welcome.
On this website, words like “wrong”, “right”, and “facts” matter. If you are going to make unsubstantiated claims that defy science, you will be questioned, and asked for cites. If you wish to tell tales to people that will respond glowingly and without question, no matter how incredible the claim, you might want to go here.
Your computer is nothing but circuits, motors, magnetic platters, and wiring. Where does your browser come from? It’s not made of circuits, motors, magnetic platters, and wiring. Should we conclude that the browser is evidence that the computer has a soul?
Method of the attempt?
Meds?
We know where the browser comes from, it is a physical program written by a programmer. Why ask?
Again… irony…
me like.
You aren’t paying attention, are you?
I see nowhere that debates must include scientific evidence or facts. What is being related here is a personal experience, and NOT an unsubstantiated claim, please show the proper respect for the views of the poster, no one says you are obligated to believe anything.
I am paying attention, I just don’t see how anything you posted pertains to the thread topic.
You might want to read the link to the experience so you will know these things.
“Physical”? Bingo, you just lost. The browser is an observable ‘side effect’ of a nonphysical program that exists only as a pattern in the electrical pulses and whatnot in your computer - which themselves exist independently of the browser, since you can completely shut down and eliminate the browser program and the pulses’ll pretty much just carry on pulsing and whatnot.
So, the browser-program is invisible, intangible, and entirely undetectable by external observation of the device. If you examine the physical elements of your computer, say by cracking it open and looking inside you will not be able to observe some “browser core” floating around in there.
Given that this example is given in rebuttal to the protest that if you cut people open, they’re full of meat, not chunky mind-bits, I’d say that it’s a very apt analogy for showing that complex, reactive and apparently very real things can exist entirely as an informational pattern housed in something entirely unlike it in form and composition (like meat or silicon, in these examples).
Says the man who blew off my personal experience (about how morphine altered my father’s emotions and behavior).
With you, facts, science, personal experiences - none of it really counts, to you. You will claim the support of anything that supports you, and dismiss anything that doesn’t, without any consistency or reasoning at all beyond your bullheaded defense of your chosen fantasies.
None of which has anything to do with the topic of this thread.
“Czarcasm -On this website, words like “wrong”, “right”, and “facts” matter. If you are going to make unsubstantiated claims that defy science, you will be questioned, and asked for cites. …”
I appreciate your help, Czarcasm. I am new here, just today. I will try to remember what you have said.
The experience was mine. I shared it. That’s it. What you find in it is yours.
It was quoted here. I only signed in to say that is real to me.
Soul, spirit, self; chose your own word. I am more than you can touch and see. You are more than I can put my hand on. I say I believe “it” is real but invisible.
I have only met your words on a screen. I like your way with them. I think we could enjoy a beverage and time to talk over them.
You don’t have a clue as to what really counts for me. But it does include having just one thread not interrupted by personal stuff. All the time I have posted here not one thread on spiritual things has been discussed in an adult like manner. The fear is just too great here.
If you go back and READ the post you just quoted so dismissively, you’ll find that I was analogizing the souls-and-meat dichotomy presented by notdeadnow with the software-and-hardware dichotomy. In short, I was presenting hard, certain proof that it’s possible for the tangible to house the intangible, and very strongly suggesting that that’s exactly what’s happening with our “innermost selves” - that our minds and emotions and “souls” and all that are simply the ‘software’ to our bodies’ “hardware”; minds housed within meat. Not to be insulting, but this was pretty obviously what I meant even before I explained it all out for you.
So, are you claiming that the topic of this thread has nothing to do with souls/innermost selves or something? :dubious:
Says the man who bases is entire position on “personal stuff”. Or is it just everyone else’s personal experiences you wish to ignore (if they don’t support the one thing that really counts for you here, that is).
Says the man who is too afraid to respond to the flaws in his position in an adult manner. Cite: the hundreds of posts you’ve simply never respondd to, because they too cleanly eviscerated your postion.
I so got what you were saying, Begbert2! I liked the way you explained it.
I was surprised that in the earlier discussion of brain damage and it’s results on a body no one said anything about those who have bodies that don’t work but their brains are fine. They may not be able to speak to express themselves, nor shrug, or raise an eyebrow or move a hand. You can tell they are “in there” as their eyes communicate with you.
My step dad had MS. He went in pieces. First his legs, then his arms stopped responding. His hands went. No remote, no writing, no computer anymore. Then his voice left him, but his lips worked. We could lip read or have him spell out what he wanted. When that didn’t work anymore he could still blink. We would say the alphabet and he would blink at the letter. It took a long time to spell out words that way but we did it so he could continue to participate in our conversations.
He was in there, but his body shut down on him. The hardware was going out, but the software was still running.
Brain damage may alter behavior, ability and perception of the body. Can it alter your basic being? I don’t know. I haven’t had to experience that yet.
No matter what your beliefs are I like this board. All of you are thinking and exploring the possibilities.
That’s living!
I’ve read part of the link that contains your story. Interesting. Thanks for sharing and stopping by to talk to us. I’ll read the rest soon.
I haven’t had an experience that dramatic but one stands out and your experience has some similar qualities. IN great emotional anguish and pain I had some sort of dream or waking dream that erased all my concerns and pain and brought me great peace, love and serenity. Nothing about my situation changed but my perception of it went from great anxiety to great peace.
I can understand some chemical in the brain making me feel better in a moment of crisis but what I can’t understand is the insight. The expanded understanding and perception of reality that offered me a new perspective of reality.
It’s a big reason I tend to believe the reality of our spiritual selves to be more than this physical body and something that continues on when this body doesn’t.
Strangely…
Wasn’t talking to you. Or with you. I now revert to that more noble plan.