Southern stereotypes and casual slurs

The BBQ Pit
61

Portwest wrote:

Yeah, I definitely have a chip on my shoulder on this topic. I’ll try to be less touchy.

elelle wrote:

I have seen that phenomenon many times myself. Racism in the abstract tends to vanish at the personal level. You might hear a guy spout off the most vile racial epithets, and then see that same guy out helping to rebuild a black church blown down by the last tornado, or as you say, fishing with his black high school buddy. It’s the damnedest thing.

There is plenty of casual racism in the south, don’t get me wrong. As elelle points out, though, the situation is considerably more complicated than you would ever guess from seeing the two-dimensional stereotypes churned out in Hollywood.

(Damn! That sure didn’t feel like a Pit post.)

62

I was trying to steer clear of the racism element, but I have to say that I agree with elelle and Spoke 100%. It’s not necessarily “casual” racism - it’s much more complicated than that. A black man comes by the house or calls on the phone - ask my dad who it was and you’ll get “aw, just some nigger…”.

But then, he taught many of the black people in our town when he was a high school teacher and coach and all of my life I’ve seen people all over this small town (his old students and their families) want to chat and buddy-up to my dad in a way that shows me that they don’t think of him as a mean 'ole bigot.

So it’s very complicated. Do I cringe every time he says “nigger”? Yes. Does it make him a nasty racist? Probably not.

63

neutron star: I think, quite frankly, you’re being guilty of practicing what you’re preaching against.

You have had experiences with racism and corruption in Louisiana, and are now extrapolating them to Southerners in general. It’s not that you’ve run into back-waters people and back-waters people tend to be more prejudiced than cosmopolitan, metropolitan peoples; it’s that they’re Southerners, and ergo all Southerners are bigots. It’s not that you live in the most corrupt state in the entire U.S., where corruption is a defacto instrument of government with stolen elections and stolen government funds; it must just be that the South in general is completely corrupt.

Do you see the inherent logical flaw in your reasoning? You’re trying to say that “This is what I have encountered in rural Louisiana” applies just fine to “this is what you would expect to find in Mississippi, Atlanta, or Virginia.” Which seems to me not much different from “I keep seeing on the news reports of black people mugging whites” extrapolating to “all black people are muggers and thieves.”

In my experience, racism goes hand in hand with ruralism. My mother’s family is in Appalachian Pennsylvania, and I’ve seen attitudes and actions in my visits there that make my blood freeze. Meanwhile, one of the states you’d like to claim is full of bigots and hatred managed to elect the first post-Reconstruction African-American governor (Doug Wilder of Virginia). And according to recent surveys, local politicians in the South (by which I mean state and local officials) are more likely to be African-American than in any other region. Not sure how they do it, what with all the lynchings and cross burnings, but there you have it.

I’m sorry if this sounds a little pissy, but you’ve touched a nerve here with me. There was a rash of church burnings a few years ago, and how did it get portrayed in the media? Why, that awful spectre of racism raising its head back in the old, bigoted South, and the lynchings were going to start up again any day now. Of course, it turned out that most of the churches that were burned were done by African-Americans, some as revenge against a former pastor, some as pranks, some as just fooling around gotten out of hand. But nobody ever really made a big deal of pointing out how the original conclusion was wrong. Then there’s this dragging death by three racist assholes in Texas. And once again, the media focuses upon how African-Americans must be so scared to live in the racist South, with only the occasional notice that the white community of the town was just as outraged and just as forthcoming in its support of the victim’s family as the African-American community.

So thank you, neutron star, for being a bigot in your own little way.

JMCJ

“Y’know, I would invite y’all to go feltch a dead goat, but that would be abuse of a perfectly good dead goat and an insult to all those who engage in that practice for fun.” -weirddave, set to maximum flame

64

johnnyharvard’s post brings to mind another facet of racism in the South. There is a huge generational difference in attitudes. Folks from my parents’ generation are far more likely to spout off racist remarks. In the younger generation, while there are some racists, they are much more the exception than the rule.

Just in reading johnnyharvard’s post, you can see the generational difference in his family. The same difference is there in my own family, and in the families of many of my friends.

65

Spoke- said:
Yeah, I definitely have a chip on my shoulder on this topic. I’ll try to be less touchy.

and

(Damn! That sure didn’t feel like a Pit post.)

Hell, no. Next time you’re going to sound so reasonable here, at least call me a bed-wettin’, pig-lickin’ #%@! Carpetbagger Yankee. :smiley:

66

I agree with Spoke. I also think it’s a generational thing.

I agree with Peyote Coyote:

I would also like to point out, concerning Neutron’s remark:

…that of course you are aware that this statement is untrue. People in Pennsylvania get tickets fixed, too. Louisiana doesn’t have a lock on the market in corruption.

Turning my attention to needs2know, I would like to say, first, for the record, that I think the following remark was completely uncalled for.

However, she sounds like she can take care of herself, so I will confine myself to pointing out that just because this is the Pit doesn’t mean you ought to throw in a bunch of gratuitous insults. This is exactly the sort of thing that Bjorn is talking about in his “Having other posters by your side” thread.

Moving on: I would like to point out that it’s perfectly fascinating to hear needs2know spouting the Bigot party line, word for word. It’s like hearing an unreconstructed Communist talk about Marx. Rather entertaining, in its own way.

A classic defense.

This is the “hey, we’re good to OUR niggers!” defense.

This is the “our niggers know their place, so keep your damn uppity Yankee niggers up north, where they belong” defense.

I’m sure all the folks who live in Compton and south central L.A. would have to agree with you there.

I’d like to say that the worst racism I have ever encountered was in the Chicago suburb of Glen Ellyn, in 1970. A middle-class black family had the temerity to buy a house in our WASP suburb (well, OK, not completely WASP, there was a Catholic family across the street, but, hey, that’s what the “melting pot” means, right?). No sooner had the news filtered down than at least 3 families put their houses up for sale, admitting PUBLICLY and without shame that it was because Dr. So-and-so was moving in. These people explained with great patience to anyone who asked, that it wasn’t the color of their skins, per se, it was just that “with that kind of people, they don’t keep their yards clean, they get all kinds of junker cars and trash in front of the house, and the property values go down.” See, it wasn’t about “prejudice”, oh, no, we’re not “prejudiced”, it was all to do with the perfectly understandable need not to have your property values go down. Nothing personal.

Unfortunately, it happened that my family was one of the ones moving away that summer. My dad had finally completed his Ph.D in Education, after many years as a school principal and teacher, and was taking up a new position that fall as an Elem. Ed. professor at one of the Illinois state universities. He felt tremendously embarrassed on behalf of his ignorant WASP (and one Catholic) neighbors, and made a special point of going across the street, when he saw the new folks looking over their house, and introducing himself and explaining the reason why HE, at least, was moving. Needless to say, most of the rest of the block thought he was rather peculiar for doing this. There were also predictions of, “Well, they won’t stay long, people like that move around a lot”, which didn’t seem to jibe with moving away before your property values fell. If they’re just going to be gone soon, why leave? “Oh, well, they’ll leave a mess behind, better to get out while you still can.”

One neighbor even told my dad, casually, “You’re lucky, you have a legitimate reason to move.”

And, again, this was in the middle class, presumably educated Chicago suburbs. Louisiana ain’t got a lock on bigotry, either.

I’d like to close with a big SDMB “welcome!” to the Crown Prince. Welcome aboard, find a seat, enjoy the ride. It’s a little bumpy sometimes, but we enjoy it.

“Why, sometimes I’ve believed as many as six impossible things before breakfast!” - the White Queen

67

And, yes, needs, I saw your apology to Ultress thread, but I thought that future generations (and newbies, and people who stumble on the site while surfing at 4 a.m.) might like to know that we didn’t all just stand there with our hands in our pockets, staring off into space and whistling, while Ultress got thumped.

I hate having to think all the time about “what if they feature this in Threadspotting”?

I think I liked it better when you could just shoot off your mouth and not worry that what you said was going to be read by casual surfers who wouldn’t know the people involved.

Now I have to worry that my “conversation with Bjorn” thread might be taken by future generations to mean something like the Dick Cavett show, or like Point/Counterpoint, and inevitably they’re going to be disappointed. “They’re talking about cheap beer and Samoan religious rituals? WTF?”

“Why, sometimes I’ve believed as many as six impossible things before breakfast!” - the White Queen

68

Alabama chiming in:

You know, this thread, taken in context, is pretty funny to my Southern sensibilities.

The original post was about people slurring Southerners as rednecks and bigots. And what ensued? Why, a general discussion of whether Southerners are rednecks and bigots. I suppose that the logic it is, if you can establish that most Southerners are rednecks and bigots, then it’s okay to call us all by those names.

Interestingly, I saw a thread in the Great Debates by KM2 arguing that black folks really are ignorant and criminal. Somehow, this did not start a debate over whether or not the accusations were true.

So, let’s make sure I’ve got the implications through my thick southern skull correctly:
-It’s not okay to make assumptions about black people based on their color, because these assumptions might not be true.
-It is okay to make assumptions about Southerners, because these assumptions might be true.

Got it.

Only a small number of people are truly awake. These people go through life in a state of constant amazement.

69

Wait! This is The Pit!

I forgot to add:

Fucking hypocrites.

Only a small number of people are truly awake. These people go through life in a state of constant amazement.

70

Uke: Not only have I come across the album in question, I’ve owned it in three incarnations (vinyl, cassette, and CD, mebbe I’ll buy it on MD just to up my count). Actually, Randy was born in LA, but his mother took him to New Orleans while his father was in the service. This is covered on the title track of Land Of Dreams.

Now, with that out of the way. I’ve spent time in the south, and on occasion have been shocked at what has been referred to as the casual racism there. I’ve also met some truly wonderful folk. Of course, I’ve met some stupendously bigoted people in major cities, too. The “casual racism” tag can be applied to people anywhere. I think that the reason so many folk feel comfortable poking fun at southerners has as much to do with media depictions as anything else. Hell, the footage of Bull’s Boys with the dogs and hoses still makes me sick to my stomach.

I grew up around people who were bigoted as all hell, but would deny it with the old, “Some of my best friends are black,” chestnut. I, fortunately, realized that these people were full of crap and have made a point of living my life in opposition to what they spouted. And I, too, have poked fun at those from below the Mason-Dixon line. But I try to get to know individuals as people before making any judgments on them, and do what I can to avoid casual slurs.

Waste
Flick Lives!

71

1st off neutron star your a idiot.

2nd I live in Greenville, SC and at least at my school I see no racism. None. There are plenty of black people at my school too. Also there are red necks in Canada too.

72

smartass:

Point taken.

I am not above the occasional West(BY God) Virginian joke myself.

I think that the reason that it is considered OK to slam southerners but not Blacks, is because of the suffering Blacks endured because of these attitudes. Have southerners suffered due to these remarks or attitudes?
(NOT a rhetorical question.)

But, as I said, point taken. I will watch it.

[hijack]
With GD down all weekend I am not sure when I will catch up with my replies. I had planned a marathon posting session (my wife is working both days). Now, we will have to see. I will do my best.
[/hijack]

Peace

73

Okay, that was my fuck up. I scrolled right down the page to the stories without even looking at that paragraph. I’d call it a case of hurried reading rather than poor reading comprehension. Parodies or not, I still don’t see why these weren’t just thrown in with the rest of the UL’s, though. And putting the bullets on that page just confuses matters.

I said I only speak for what I’ve seen in Louisiana. In fact, I think I said that twice.

Did I say I lived in rural Louisiana? Did you read any of my posts at all? Like my profile says, I live in Lafayette. There are 130,000 people in this city. Half a million if you count its suburbs. Hardly rural.

As Notthemama pointed out and I agreed with, Virginia is far, far different than Louisiana. It’s one of those states that is technically South, but not really. The general attitude here seems to be that if it snows more than once every two years, it ain’t the South.

And thank you for totally missing the fucking point of every post I made in this thread.

Perhaps there are some people in PA that get their tickets fixed. Personally, I never met one in 19 years. I’ve been in Louisiana for three years, and I’ve met very few people who haven’t had their tickets fixed. I just read in the paper the other day about a police officer getting convicted of selling cocaine. Since I’ve been here, I’ve seen cops get busted for planting evidence (Chief of police did that one), robbing an elementary school, serial rape, taking bribes etc, etc. Yes, I’m sure this happens up North as well, but to this degree? I think not.

I said not all Southerners are like this. Some are actually very cool (my wife for one). I said that several times. I’m getting sick of saying it and having everyone ignore it and flame me anyway.

I’d respond to this, but I’m afraid I can’t stop laughing.

74

I cannot believe that I am actually being slammed for making an apology. Only here on the Straightdope! I believe my apology was to Ultress. And in a big way it was done more for my benefit than hers. I had made a commitment to myself that if I was going to post here I would not resort to the name calling, self-righteous attitudes, and outright hostility that I see here so often. But in this case I’ll make an exception…My apology was to Ultress, nobody else and if anyone else has a problem with it then that’s just too bad…you can kiss my sweet little Southern, lilly white ass!

I appreciate the spirit in which this thread was started. You were correct it is OK to dog Southerners. We are perhaps one of the few stereotypes that it is perfectly OK to buy into without recieving a tongue lashing from the politically correct.

Oh yeah and Notthemama…just because you are perhaps the most obnoxious poster here does not necessarily make you the brightest. Perhaps if you toned it down a little you might actually get your point across once in awhile. Sometimes you can shout so loud that people tune you out. I try to anyway.

Needs2know

75

This is the Pit folks. We do tend to get a little rougher here than the other forums. You have to have a little thicker skin that normal to post here. It’s almost expected. That’s why it’s the Pit. This is where you can vent, curse to some extent if you feel the need, and settle differences of opinion. The great thing about this board, everyone has an opinion, and everyone is entitled to state that opinion. It’s not about changing a person’s mind. It’s about stating what your opinion is and why you have that opinion. I think I’m probably old enough that I’m very set in my ways. I have developed my opinions over the years and it would be pretty hard to change them, although I would hope that I’m open minded enough to change. So tell me your opinion, I’ll tell you why I think it’s silly or I’ll tell you why I agree with it. But it’s your opinion and you are entitled to it.
So it gets a little rough around here, laugh about it. Never take it to heart. Sometimes you might just get your eyes opened.

76

This is the Pit folks. We do tend to get a little rougher here than the other forums. You have to have a little thicker skin than normal to post here. It’s almost expected. That’s why it’s the Pit. This is where you can vent, curse to some extent if you feel the need, and settle differences of opinion. The great thing about this board, everyone has an opinion, and everyone is entitled to state that opinion. It’s not about changing a person’s mind. It’s about stating what your opinion is and why you have that opinion. I think I’m probably old enough that I’m very set in my ways. I have developed my opinions over the years and it would be pretty hard to change them, although I would hope that I’m open minded enough to change. So tell me your opinion, I’ll tell you why I think it’s silly or I’ll tell you why I agree with it. But it’s your opinion and you are entitled to it.
So it gets a little rough around here, laugh about it. Never take it to heart. Sometimes you might just get your eyes opened. I know I have.

77

Let’s see, a sizeable portion of the population believes that Southerners are generally bigoted and stupid. They hear a southern accent–perhaps in a job interview–and make assumptions based on it. Are any Southerners harmed by this? Not at all.

That wasn’t the point I was making, though. It is an act of intellectual laziness–and foolish, to boot–to make assumptions about a person you don’t know based on his/her color, accent, clothes, etc. Making assumptions about individuals based on what you think you know about the population is an act of stereotyping.

If it is wrong to stereotype black people, then it is just as wrong to stereotype Southerners. I’m not saying that it’s the kind of damage that should necessitate legal action, but I do agree that it is wrong.

And if you think that there is some difference in the “wrongness” of this behavior, depending on whom you are directing it at, then you are, as I said, a fucking hypocrite.

78

Why is it that southern blacks are denied their regional identities? Why is it assumed that the last thing any black person would want is an identity AS a southerner? Once more, for the record,goddamnit, BLACK PEOPLE ARE SOUTHERNERS TOO! if you accept it or not the south is a creole culture, a composite, and has been for a very long time. As Ralph Ellison said " you can’t be Southerner without being black and you can’t be a black Southerner with out being white." ie there exist common cultural values that transcend race here in the South.

79

I don’t see anything wrong with it.

Stereotypes IMO arise not because that’s the way most of (whatever group) are like that, but because those qualities are not often found in other groups.

So you have the image of a your basic semi-literate Southern cracker, with his distended belly causing his skin-tight t-shirt to ride halfway up his chest, several–if not more–teeth missing or present, Confederate flag-waving, living in a run-down trailer, etc.

Sure that’s a small percentage, but it’s a small percentage that is mostly commin in Souther whiteys.

Similarly, most Blacks are not jive-talkin’, ditty-boppin’, fried-chicken-smackin’ jigaboos. But that image is not commonly found in other ethnic groups, so the stereotype exists. (They are better dancers than whites, though. That is not a stereotype.)

So, I’m just saying “I like stereotypes,” regardless of what group they’re making fun of. I don’t see anything wrong with 'em.

80

I don’t see anything wrong with it.

Stereotypes IMO arise not because that’s the way most of (whatever group) are like that, but because those qualities are not often found in other groups.

So you have the image of a your basic semi-literate Southern cracker, with his distended belly causing his skin-tight t-shirt to ride halfway up his chest, several–if not more–teeth missing or present, Confederate flag-waving, living in a run-down trailer, etc.

Sure that’s a small percentage, but it’s a small percentage that is mostly commin in Souther whiteys.

Similarly, most Blacks are not jive-talkin’, ditty-boppin’, fried-chicken-smackin’ jigaboos. But that image is not commonly found in other ethnic groups, so the stereotype exists. (They are better dancers than whites, though. That is not a stereotype.)

So, I’m just saying “I like stereotypes,” regardless of what group they’re making fun of. I don’t see anything wrong with 'em.