Whilst I’m in a curious mood, (see here) , I have a quick question about speeding and speed cameras.
If you travel on a long stretch of road with multiple speed cameras, and you pass all of above the speed limit, getting flashed each time you will receive multiple infringement notices and the appropriate penalty points.
Lets say its 3 penalty points per offence and you only have twelve points on your license you can lose.
If you passed 5 cameras you would lose your license.
My question is - is it really 5 seperate offences, if you never dropped below the speed limit between cameras ? As I see it you have only committed the one offence of breaking the speed limit.
Also - what is the position if you pass from a 50 into a 30 and back again whilst always travelling at 70? Is is seperate offences this time?
As always, my thanks to the board for fighting my ignorance!!
No - its not for me - I use the train to get to work.
I just wondered as it seems a little unfair.
You read from time to time in the papers of people going to work along the M25 in the UK and passing so many cameras (whilst speeding) that by the time they get to work their license has been effectively lost.
Thanks anyway, should I ever find myself in that position I will make a mental note to ask him/her
I think it probably is five separate counts because the speed limits are variable and you are therefore supposed to observe the speed on each stretch (or in other words, the variable speed limit signs are notifying you that you’re entering into a zone where the posted speed limit is enforced - that it is the same speed limit as the previous zone is moot).
So what you are saying is that the offense is committed when you pass the sign? Or have I misunderstood you?
The reasoning I have always applied is that if I perform another crime i.e a burglary and I make several trips backwards and forwards with my swag, I only get charged with the one offence. If my swag consisted of 10 TV’s - its not 10 offences. The punishment may be more severe but I am unsure if there is a lot of room for movement in the prescribed punishment for doing 90 in a 70 zone.
And what if there was no variable speed limits (like the stretch of A40 that used to have loads of cameras)?
I appreciate your patience here Mangetout … but why?
Hypothetically …
You jump on the M1 (or whatever) which is a motorway with a defined speed limit of 70Mph. You speed up to 90Mph, in the process breaking the speed limit. You drive for 32 miles passing 5 cameras and then slow down to go wherever it is you were going.
You have only broken the speed limit once, allbeit in may different locations (over 50,000 if you want to measure the distance in metres).
So how come it is 5 offences and not 50,000?
Maybe it is each time you pass a sign that it becomes a new offence. The real deal here is I don’t know which is why I asked here.
As for the houses, I don’t agree as to burglarise 5 seperate houses would require the cessation of one crime to start the other - however briefly. In our example that would be like dipping below 70 briefly.
Number one thing whenever you get a notice of prosecution for speeding is to insist on your right to view the photo.
Its one basic right you have, to view the evidence against you.
Speed cameras are far from infallable, it is not unknown (but ‘very rare’ according to home office spokesperson) for the camera system to be faulty.
Things that can cause false prosecutions, more than one vehicle in the image - if another vehicle in the image was speeding faster than you - even if you were doing so at the time, you might have recourse to get the charge dropped.
Radar reflections - It is entirely possible you were not speeding at all, or the camera was inaccurate, one driver this very day was nicked for doing over 40 in a 30 zone, but when he insisted on reviewing the he discovered what he knew all along - that he had been travelling at 13mph.
Criminally minded folk will obtain false plates for a vehicle of the same make and colour and year as the one you drive, this makes it difficult for the police to trap them on a plate/ownership check unless they actually stop the vehicle, and the police don’t have time for that usuallly unless it is a specific operation - it might be a road you normally travel, but it still might not be your vehicle in the image - I’d recommend you have something distinctive stuck inside your rear window to aid identification.
Most people do not view the evidence as they cannot remember the exact details of their offence, however no reliable publicly available statistics are produced about the accuracy of speed cameras can be obtained by the public so the number of false prosecutions is unknown - and thats just how the speed nannys want it to remain.
You’re driving along a country lane and you approach a residential area; you see a 40 sign and you slow down, but you’re still going at 52mph. A little further on, you see a 30 sign and you slow again, but you’re still doing 41mph.
In this case, you’ve broken two speed limits because at some point in a speed-restricted zone (which is the area between signs), you’ve driven at more than the posted limit.
It’s the same on the M25 - the zone between each set of signs has its own speed limit, as defined by the signs and driving at more than that limit is a crime; driving at more than the speed limit in two zones is two crimes, even thought it just happens to be that the speed limit for those two zones is the same at that particular time of day.
If a cop was following you through all those cameras zones, maybe he wanted to see if he could get you for something else on top of speeding. When he finally pulled you over. Would he give you five speeding tickets or one?
I believe a ticket is for an observed offense. Think of the cameras as cops. It’s somewhat likely (though not completely certain) that if you passed 5 cops while speeding, each one would pull you over and give you a ticket. It really doesn’t matter what you do before or after you get pulled over, just what the cop saw you do.
Speeding involves breaking the law an infinite number of times; every moment, you break it again. The five speed cameras merely catch you on five of those moments. While no traffic cop would issue five tickets in the same situation, he could. (although one might legitimately complain of harassment) Five traffic cops would definitely each issue a ticket.
And one cop would definitely issue a second ticket if he caught you again, especially if the second ticket involved a greater infraction (e.g., 30 mph over the speed limit, instead of 15).
I think this is where we disagree. I would say you broke the law once. As pointed out earlier (although with a different example) if you stole $40,000,000. You would not be charged with 40,000,000,000 (mills are a valid form of virtual currency) counts of robbery.
cite? If they could you would hear about it. Some cops like to be dicks and try to get people for every little thing they can. If they could get a speeder as many counts of speeding as they want, some would.
Five Cops maybe or one Cop if s/he caught you again. However I would say it’s different. You would have been pulled over each time. You know you have been ticketed all ready. I would say that every time your notified of your ticket or you arrive where your going that incedent ends. Otherwise it opens the door for an otherwise fine driver to rack up thousands of dollars in fines and a lost license for going 56 in a 50 zone.
oh wait this is a British thing. Does this happen over here in America? I have never heard of it before (multiple cameras slamming a driver for the same offence that is). If this is just a British thing then well you guys really should fix it but hey what ever it’s your country.
On the subject of the five offences, AFAIK it’s a completely automated process sending out the tickets, so yes, you will get 15 points and you will lose your licence.
You may get a better response (including from some police officers) if you ask on the ‘Speeding, Plod & the Law’ forum on www.pistonheads.com
