So after I get the ticket, as the cop winds up, I ask to see the radar gun. He briefly looks flustered and then says:
under Texas law e’s not required to show me
besides, he didn’t lock the gun so it’s not there anyway
Me: How come you didn’t lock the gun?
if he does that he gets a false reading
Me: Why?
because you’re slowing down and the gun will lock onto another car. WTF??!!?!!
Q: Has anyone else ever heard of this? Is the cop saying that the Doppler Effect (or something similar) screws up his reading?
Q: I have always been under the impression that the cop is supposed to show the gun, if asked. Is that not true in Texas? I have been all through the law crawlers of the world and I can’t find an answer.
The city of Houston needs cash so they’re pulling people over left and right. I was speeding, but everyone else was too and I’m just pissed because the cop picked me out of the group to pull over. I know my odds of success are low, but I can’t take defensive driving (my one-year ban from the last time expires in 2 weeks!) and I figure I’ve got nothin’ to lose but time if I try and go fight this one out - maybe some court costs as well. Besides, I’m kind of interested in getting involved in the process and having my say. And the cop probably won’t show up. If he does, I want to have a defense and it sounds like I might be able to get something here if I can figure out a way to argue that the gun COULD have picked up another car. After all my whole argument is that I wasn’t speeding. It sounds to me like he was admitting something I could use if I use it right.
I understand the whole point about state’s witness, etc. And I’m not going to just go in and play the “cop is lying” routine - I know it won’t work. Rather, I’m going to try and gather evidence and make an argument based on this radar gun story if I can figure one out.
Does anyone have a link to the rules for speed detection in Texas?
This is the group that successfully lobbied to repeal the national 55 mph speed limit, and is currently involved in other driver’s rights issues. They have plenty of information on how to fight speeding tickets.
From my experience in the Manor speedtrap, I can advise you to ask for a trial, then ask for an extension while you gather information. You can get some data from the police department throught the discovery process – things like the cop’s log for the day, the most recent adjustments to his radar gun, etc. I wrote up a list of about a dozen items, and initially the police department refused to give me any of them. But when I next went to court and told the prosecutor I couldn’t proceed without them, he instructed the police department to provide most of them, giving me an excuse for another extension. At any rate, find out exactly what your rights are, and insist on every single one of them. They may eventually reduce the charges just to get you out of their hair. In my case, I eventually got a jury trial about 6 months later. The charge stood, but I raised enough questions that the fine was reduced from $100 to $30.
Your local library should also have some books on the topic. You’ll find some good tips there.
As for the safety course, that’s up to the judge’s discretion. When I was in the same situation after having just moved to El Paso, I asked the judge for an extension so I could find a lawyer. He offered the option of a driving class, but since I had taken one just a few months earlier, I didn’t think that was an option. He said he could give me that option, if that’s what I wanted, so I took it.
Sorry, I forgot the OP’s original intent. Yes, the Manor fleece officer (and the Manor prosecutor) also claimed that, according to Texas law, he doesn’t have to show me the radar gun. If that’s true, this is the only state I know of with such a law.
Under discovery, you might ask exactly which law he’s referring to. Such a law needs to be challenged and abolished. Such an action is going to take some funding, though.
And, when you’re questioning the cop (if you go to trial), you might consider having him recall exactly what he said to you, and point out the admission of potential innacuracy to the judge (or the jury, if you choose).
Wouldn’t it be kinda funny if you went through all this trouble gathering data and formulating a case, only to have the officer involved not show up for the trial? In Texas, if the cop doesn’t show, the case is usually dismissed.
I wrote on beating speeding tickets on my web site. But the best way to beat them is to get a book, ‘Beat that Ticket’ about $20 from Amazon.com [They might have it].
The most special part is the street they used it on MUST have a speed zone test indicating what the idea speed is, not what its posted to be.
I’ve never been to Houston city court, but my understanding is that it’s a real pain in the ass for everyone involved, including the cops, so the cops don’t usually show up unless it’s a major offense like school zones, accidents, etc.
I’m only asking this because IF he shows up, I don’t want to look like an idiot with no argument and I might as well use my right to speak up and at least have a say in the process.
Just looked at the link you provided - lots of good stuff - thanks.
I am familiar with the Manor speed trap on 290, though I personally have never been stopped there. I drive that route frequently and have been pulled over in Giddings (no ticket, though) and Burton. That highway is quite an “annuity” to all of the local governments along the way. It’s the gift that keeps on giving!
Not to sound ridiculous, but would it be all that much trouble to limit your speed to 2-3 mph above the posted speed limit so as to avoid any pull-overs at all?
Have your speedo and cruise control checked at a state inspection station or someplace that can offer a relatively good expectation of accuracy, then stay within the absolute maximum (in my state 3-6 over posted) speed allowances for your state.
If you no speed, you no get pulled over! Simple, yes? :rolleyes:
FixedBack
“Moderate strength is shown in violence, supreme strength is shown in levity.”~~G.K.Chesterton 1908
I don’t know what the statistics might in truth be, but I’ve been to traffic court in Houston several times and I’ve never had the ticketing officer fail to show.
I agree with your sentiments, and on city streets I rarely go more than 4-5 miles above the speed limit.
In this particular circumstance, the stop occurred at night on an undeveloped stretch of the access road next to an interstate highway (the West Loop) here in Houston. I admit I was speeding, and I probably was going 51 mph as the cop said, but there is no legitimate safety reason why the speed limit should be 35 for that particular stretch. The only reason for the 35 limit, as far as I’ve been able to determine, is to provide a easy place for the HPD to catch speeders and hit them with $150 tickets that help fund city government.
I understand that doing this is standard practice around the country, but I’m indignant at being randomly chosen from a group of 5 vehicles traveling at about the same speed just so I have the privilege of funding our incompetent mayor’s (ex Clinton Drug Czar Lee Brown’s) city-funded vacation to Africa. (He took along some local cops for security and then said the trip was for “trade purposes”)
Maybe my problem is more with the apathy of the “normal” voters who would never let a guy like this get into office if they cared enough to vote.
There’s a difference between going fifty down a busy commerical thoroughfare and going fifty down an undeveloped stretch of straight road. In the first case, you’re a menace to public safety and deserve a citation that might act as a deterrent to future dangerous acts. In my case, I feel that I’m being taken for granted and being used for my wallet. Of course I’ll fight if I can.
Never ceases to amaze me how people insist on rationalizing why THEY shouldn’t have been punished for breaking the law.
How about paying the fine, then getting involved in a legitimate attempt to:
Make sure Texas law requires that you see the speed registered on a radar speed detection device, and
Change the speed limit on the stretch of road in question. You might find that there are indeed legitimate reasons for such a limit; you might also succede in convincing Houston to change it.
You state that the stop was on an access road next to an interstate highway. I would imagine that there are predetermined speed limits for all types of roads, and the fact that your OPINION is that 35 is not a legitimately supportable speed limit doesn’t amount to a hill of beans.
If everyone started driving the speed that they decided was correct for a particular section of roadway, we’d be in one helluva mess. Speed limits are there for a reason, even if you don’t believe it to be legitimate reasoning.
I seriously doubt that your speed limits are for the express purpose of funding a crooked cops vacations, or that by getting stopped you are being “picked on”. You were speeding (by your own admission) and the fact that you got nabbed out of a group of speeders is just a function of your own sorry aced luck, and not, as you seem to think, a knowing plot to “get you”.
If you are just working off another punishment for speeding, then I would guess you have a problem remembering what you learned in the stop prior to this one (which doesn’t say much for you, 'cause even a carp won’t bite the same hook twice).
FixedBack
“Moderate strength is shown in violence, supreme strength is shown in levity.”~~G.K.Chesterton 1908
Whatever the original intentions of speed limits, I think that their main purpose now is indeed to aid in revenue generation.
I am familiar with one town, whose mayor bragged about how much more revenue the town was now bringing in since they head lowered the speed limit from (whatever) to 25.
I am familiar with another town, and one of the candidates in a town council election said that–in order to enhance the town’s coffers–she would recommend tht the speed limit be dropped 10 mph on the town’s main drag.
Those are just two examples of people that were honest about it. I’m sure that many other elected officials feel the same way.
Not allowing you to see the radar reading smacks of suppressing evidence.
If you go to court, don’t admit to speeding. If you do, the judge will immediately find you guilty, assess the fine, and probably add court costs.
That depends. The OP reported that he was moving along with the flow of traffic. If he did as you said, he’d be a traffic hazard.
No. In my case, I was pulled for going 70 in a 55 zone. My speedometer said 55. That was such a discrepency, I had the truck dyno-tested. Well, the speedometer was off – by 5 mph. The cop padded the charge by 10 mph. He was obviously lying, for whatever reason. But try saying that in court, and you’ll get nowhere. You have to catch him in a lie (or at least a contradiction), then point that out to the judge (or jury).
BTW, my truck is a Chevy. The dyno-test shop owner said that GM products are notorious for speedometer problems, as the gear inside the transmission that turns the speedometer cable is made of plastic, and gets worn down during normal use. Fords and Mopars have more reliable speedometers: when speedometers start reading wrong on them, it’s usually due to car owners changing tire sizes.
While it’s true that a cruise control will maintain a vehicle’s speed, not all of us have that option on our vehicles. Nor is it a good idea to use them in stop-and-go city driving or on hilly terrain.
I wasn’t asking for a lecture on the morality of driving too fast or for anyone’s opinion as to whether I’m rationalizing why I shouldn’t have gotten a ticket. I was speeding, the cop pulled me over, and so, according to the law, I deserved a ticket for speeding. I don’t deny this. I don’t think there’s a plot out to get me. And you’re right - it’s my own sorry luck that I happened to be the one that got caught.
I just don’t want to pay $200 and I’m trying to avoid doing so. I don’t apologize for that.
Now, in reference to your “Carp” remark:
In December of last year, I was pulled over by a state trooper who informed me that I had no front license plate, which is required in Texas and carried a $150 fine in the county. I didn’t know it had fallen off, but the citation was at the cop’s discretion and he apparently didn’t believe me that I didn’t know.
Later, I appealed to the judge that I didn’t know it was gone (which was true) and that I would get it replaced. He let me take traffic school instead of paying the fine. I took this class during the last week of January. According to the rules for the City of Houston, I must have completed a course a full 12 months before the citation is issued in order to be eligible to take it again. I know I can just ask the judge for permission to do it again this time, and maybe I will, but that’s beside the point right now.
I wasn’t speeding then, and I don’t appreciate your insinuation (twice now) that I’m some sort of scofflaw who’s a terror on the highway. My first speeding ticket occurred 10 years ago when I was 16 years old. My second occurred last Thursday.
You might also contact the highway department and ask for their engineering study of that stretch of road. This should indicate what they feel is a safe and reasonable speed. When the cop first testifies, he’ll blather on about safety. Use that study to question his knowledge of the safety of that road.
If the cop doesn’t show up in court, the ticket is automatically dismissed. This only happened to me once, in Phoenix. That day, there was a huge rainstorm, and the cops all had to pull extra duty because of the flooding.
However, if the cop knows that he won’t be in court that day, and notifies the court well in advance, a new court date will be set. They also need to notify you well in advance.
Never ceases to amaze me how many people will dogpile on someone in trouble, but when THEY get in trouble, they expect universal sympathy.
How did “breaking the law” in this case adversely affect anyone else? Did the OP’s actions cause an accident? An injury? A death? Or was he merely trying to get from one point to another? The law, in this case, turns the city policeman into a highway robber.
How’s he going to affect any changes by admitting to guilt? He stands a better chance by pleading innocent: if he’s fined, he’ll be the injured party.
Johnnyharvard, I withdraw my second post in this thread. There will be a meeting at Luke’s house tomorrow to discuss how to fight the upcoming EPA proposal to prevent you from driving one day out of the week, among other things. Hearings will be held throughtout the state on the issue, including one in Houston. If you have anything to add to this topic, you’re welcome to attend.
Thanks, John Rush. You’re really big on these motorist issues (not just speeding, eh?). I share your concerns about the proposed new EPA guidelines - how in the heck is something like that going to work in Houston?
Oh for goodness sake. I can’t believe the prevalence of the notion that a person who admits to committing an infraction should nevertheless attempt to avoid the responsibility for his actions and fight to see if he can get off the hook. That sort of whiney, self-centered attitude is precisely what makes governing this country so damn difficult.
Why should a person violating the law be punished even though no one was hurt? Goodness, what a stupid question! Because we don’t WAIT in this country for someone to actually cause an accident to charge them with stupidity, we try to stop it, first.
I have been ticketed three times for violating traffic laws, twice in my stupid youth when I thought there were more important things than doing what society felt was right, once when I was just impatient and passed through a left-turn only lane. I paid each ticket off without quibble.
The original post and the follow up posts from the poster made clear that he felt three things were ‘unfair’ about the situation. As to the fact he was pulled over when others weren’t, well, that can seem mighty unfortunate, but likely he has had times he doesn’t even know about that someone else speeding near him was pulled over and he wasn’t; there isn’t anything in particular about that that can be ‘fixed’. As to the other two things, (the radar gun not showing the speed registered and the speed limit not representing the actual practicalities and needs of the road), I have suggested that he work to see that those aspects are ‘fixed’. But I don’t see why these facts alone should in any way affect his approach to being caught admittedly breaking the law! Pay the fine, and move on to the important stuff.
Now, if he felt he was doing, say, 38 in the 35 zone, and the cop said 51 and wouldn’t show the radar, NOW maybe you have some reason to feel hard done by on your ticket…
