Jesus had a message. What I’m saying is, following that message is our calling, not just feeling spiritual. Call it what you like, but having a special relationship with the universe may require some greater knowledge. Knowledge of the creator of the universe, for example. Granted, a mere human can’t really know that much about God, but we can know about what he’s done, and thus, how he behaves and why he’s worthy of our praise. (Because he is, above all else.) So yeah, being spiritual for spirituality’s sake is meaningless.
Jesus said who he was. He told us how to be right with God, to repent of our sins, etc. Doctrine is our attempt to understand that.
I go to AA, where they are very open towards everyone’s interpretation of a Higher Power. I don’t think that’s a vague spirituality. It’s admitting that no two people are going to have the same concept of God, and not judging people for their differing viewpoints. It’s freeing to be able to believe in a God without having to subscribe to Christianity or some other religion that I don’t believe in. To me, that’s spirituality.
All right, I’ll rise to the bait. Notice that in my quote, “to be” is an infinitive. In this case, that clearly applies to all times, now included. So that’s a “no” to your speculation; religion remembers the past, gives hope for the future, and guides us in the present.
Incidentally, cosmodan, I’m not sure I responded well enough to your last claim. I should point out that structure would be liturgies and laws, etc. Substance is merely why we should do certain things, like worship God or even why we have certain structures. This does not mean that structures are not a perfectly valid and often-useful tool.
I have to chime in and agree with eustachian≠fallopian. If you believe Jesus is the Truth, He is the Truth regardless of how individual people happen to feel about Him. If you are a Christian, Jesus told you everything you need to know about God, life, purpose. A sermon is not someone trying to get you to see their individual interpretation, but bringing a community to a greater understanding of the central Truths that exist outside (and inside) of us.
Jesus is telling us today what He told us then, love God, love your neighbor, and He will always be with us, unchanging. He did give us guidelines for our lives and for 2000 years people have been inspired to interpret how God would like us to live. It is not being a mindless sheep to follow this, because it is revelation from God, not from another person. Plus, you kind of get indications on your own that it is The Truth.
It seems that religion relies heavily on human authority presented as divine authority. Perhpas spirituality is more about recoginzing the divinity within.
"Once, having been asked by the Pharisees when the kingdom of God would come, Jesus replied, “The kingdom of God does not come with your careful observation, nor will people say, ‘Here it is,’ or ‘There it is,’ because the kingdom of God is within you.” (Luke 17:20-22)
BTW, I acknowledge the possibility that Jesus could have said the above, but it doesn’t matter to me whether he actually said it.
And you can, of course, check to see what your particular religion says about it.
How about this:
“We are born into a society and hear a bunch of stuff from parents, family members, teachers, celebrities, the media, and absorb most of it by rote. I’m sure most of them have some small unique connection to their spiritual life, but the beliefs that we’ve learned cover most of it up. We absorb our thoughts about life, morality, their relation to the spiritual world, and many other things from many sources. How often do people question the things they think, and why they think them?”
No, I didn’t discover my spirituality on my own. I had a near death experience and discovered it there. My other posts in this thread explain more.
However, I know that people can, and do, discover it on their own. You can prepare for it and hope for the breakthrough, or just do what comes naturally.
It usually happens when least expected, and it is not necessary to be religious.
I have noticed that when people truly believe life is horrible for them, or when they are feeling exceptionally peaceful and safe, this is when it happens most. The two extremes seem to draw the experience. Also emminent death, real or imagined, produces near death experiences.
You can meditate to it. The thing that works best is a real belief in unconditional love. Practice it as best you can, no one is perfect. We are learners here, learning to discover who we are, and exercise self-discipline to become spiritual so we can discover our link to the Oneness of God.
According to your definitions, which have as much of a connection with reality as most things you say - ie none. Who are you to decide what the words mean?
Didn’t you leave, by the way? Got over Czarcasm’s horrific personal attacks, did you?
Priceguy As the OP, I ask you to please keep personal attacks out of this thread. (yes, it was minor and indirect, but it was rude none the less)
And as for your first part… lekatt was following the conversation of the thread, this one that we are in titled Spirituality VS Religion and the discussion is about the differences between them and what they mean to us personally. Thus, in the spirit of this discussion, it is entirely for him to decide what the words mean… as it is for you to decide for yourself what they mean to you and then share that with us.
I see that you have shared that, for you, spirituality and religion are synonymous, which is clearly very different than what I think. I just don’t get how you can see them that way. They are so very clear cut different (and reading others responses, I see that I am not alone). Would you please expand upon that?
IAMBIC I fully agree that we absorb info from every area of our lives, not just church. My comment was about religion (and churches) because religion is Supposed to teach about the spiritual aspect of life.
Reading all the replies, I think that I have refined my dislike for religion to (as someone put it) the Structure, Doctrine, and Dogma. By forcing followers to accept their S.D.D.s, the churches keep their followers from questioning what they are told.
Yes, I can also see this. It’s an easy trap to fall into though. Just like schools that wind up teaching a lot of facts, without teaching how to actually think, it can do a little good for a lot of people.
…
… Wow, Epiphany… While previewing and trying to make sense of my own logic, I figured out my upset…
To quote lecat again: “Spirituality begins when you discover who you are.” (bolding mine)
No one can tell you who you are. No one can tell you who you are in relation to the universe (god, life, the spirits, etc.) Only you can figure that out.
Religion tries to Tell You who you are, who you are in relation to the universe.
“Forcing”? How are they doing that? Maybe they did so in Inquisition times, but in this day and age, nobody expects the Spanish Inquisition! Only the most strict and authoritarian churches—certainly a minority—frown upon all questioning, thinking, and discussion about matters of SD&D, and even they can’t do any worse than kick you out of the church.
Ok, ‘forcing’ was perhaps not the best choice of words… but it comes close in more cases than you mention…
Someone grows up going to a church with their family. They know and are friends with the other members of the congregation. As others have said, a church is as much a social institution as a religious one. So, in a way, they are forced to accept the dogma of that church, or if they question it and find they believe something different, they have to give up the social community they are used to.
When I was young, I was forced to go to church, revivals, and Bible school by my mother. I understand now that it was something she felt would benefit me. But the result was terrifying to me. I believed completely in the doctrine, and never felt secure in my religion. When I was old enough I quit going, but still retained a fear that I wasn’t right with God.
Finally, when I went to college and took some religion courses I began to understand I was in no danger. Our professor asked us to read the Bible straight through like you would any book. I was surprised, shocked, and even angered to find much of the doctrine I was taught didn’t exist in the Bible, or if it was mentioned not at all like I was lead to believe. This was when I became agnostic.
I know this is not true of all churches. I believe the hell fire teachings in most churches has lessened now.
Spirituality usually begins with some kind of spiritual experience. A vision, out-of-body experience, near death experience, seeing or talking to an Angel, God, etc. The result of this experience is often called enlightenment, or cosmic consciousness, or even Christ consciousness in the Christian realm.
What it feels like is an expansion of self into the whole of the Universe. There is not much material to read about it. But there is a book called “Cosmic Consciousness” by Richard Bucke. This book was published 100 years ago, but is still available from Amazon.com today. Rarely any book is in print after 100 years. It details the lives of different people pointing out when they “became cosmically aware.” It is a very interesting book and well worth reading.
It’s not strictly forcing but there is pressure to conform. Much of it is self imposed as people seek approval and acceptance from the group. Sometimes there is implied or specific pressure from within the group to not say or do anything the group might not approve of.
I have an old friend who is a member of a fairly conservative christian congregation. We had a series of talks about doctrine and alternative views to the traditional chirstian beliefs. She would sometimes run new ideas by some of her friends at church to get their input. Finally someone told her she should stop talking to me because I was dangerous. Dangerous? Because I made her think about things in a less traditional way. Different congregations and denominations can be very controlling of their members. It varies.
The message, rather than seek god within, is “we know what god thinks is right so just listen to us”
