Please tell me what I am...

Great Debates
1

I hope that this is the right forum for this question. If not, I’m sure it will be moved soon enough to Great Debates…

Through most of my life, I contented myself saying I was an agnostic. I’m a pretty intelligent person (not bragging, I’m just lucky that dad is a genius and I got some genes), and I approached the world in the logical way that dad did.

Now, I’m 31 years old now. I have found a woman who makes me feel more alive than I have ever felt before. This may sound odd, but upon meeting her, and falling in love with her, for the first time in my life I felt the presence and decided in my heart that there was a God. However, my mom always had a distrust of any organized religion, and that stayed with me even after her death.

(Note: Dad was raised Catholic but became a strong agnostic in college, mom was Jewish.)

No doubt you all know about the LBMB. Even though I was searching for a God I was finally starting to slowly believe in, I was still the posterboy for Secular Humanist reasoning there. As far as social and political issues, I still align myself with that line of thought, and doubt that will change anytime soon.

In going to the board, I started to learn by watching. These people - especially the most fundamentalist of them - were scared stiff. Oh, it manifested itself with bluster and condemnation at anything which even hinted of being against Scripture, but it was obvious.

At this point, I started looking at other religions - the Judaism of my mother’s side (I am technically Jewish and always will be so) and even purchased an English translation of the Koran.

As much as I looked and saw the simulariities that all three religions preached, I also saw the hate in their name throughout history, the animosity between not only the different faiths, but between denominations as well. And I started thinking about how this would work into my own ideas of what it’s all about.

It occured to me that if Christians were correct, Jews - God’s “Chosen People,” would go to Hell for the simple reason that they worshiped Him not through Jesus, which makes no sense. Why would a just, fair God condemn His people to Hell? Simply for believing that He was real and that one day, the real messiah would come?

Whereas the Jews believe the Christians are misguided, and question their relationship with their G-d. I went to a Jewish chat room, and with vitriol, they commented about how the X-ians all worship Zeus and how they turned their back on G-d.

Then, I look at the Koran, and the very first words in it are, “This Book is not to be doubted.” I don’t know that much about Islam, but that is pretty clear right there.

So, who was right? How would I choose?

Last week, I had an epiphany. I was driving home from work, and out National Public Radio station came on. It was airing an interview with Karen Armstrong, a former nun who has gone on to write a slew of books on all of the “Big Three” religions. She was promoting her new book The Battle For God.

While she said some really fascinating things about fundamentalism and how all fundie movements are similar, and I enjoyed her discussions about the battle between mythos and logos throughout history, when she discussed her own beliefs is when my mouth got wide, as I finally heard someone articulate what I was always thinking.

She claimed to call herself a Supreme Monolitheist, someone who believes that much wisdom is to be learned from many different religious texts, that all of them are merely stories that men - inspired by God, or Prophets - put to paper, and that none of these texts - let alone a single Bible - could very well capture all there is to know about God.

There was no one “right” path, even though most religions say there’s is that way; they were simply different paths to the same God, it’s just that He has different names and different cultures and ceremony to learn about Him. And God would not reject his children who made an honest attempt to know Him, whether he book was The Torah, the New Testament or the Koran.

Nutshell: All the same dude! And all valid ways to learn to know Him!

Needless to say, this view did not go over very well at LBMB. I beliieve one poster said such thoughts were “of Satan” (Please, no jokes…)

Anyway, I beg of you… Am I truly alone in my feelings? Is there some kind of faith which would encompass what I believe to be true with all of my heart?

Or am I forever going to not find anyone who is like-minded in what I believe, and my spiritual studying will be reading those texts - learning - in solitude, unable to celebrate my faith and love for God in a church that would have me?

I appreciate any responses to my question, as it is a matter of great importance to me. I apologize for the length of this post - oddly enough, I edited it quite extensively to get it to even this probably unmanagable length.

Yer pal,
Satan

2

What you are is a man seeking to know God.

Not a new thing, really. New to you, of course, and not within the limits created by your previous logic and reason. The territory is filled with unanswerable questions, and folks who will assure you that they have the one and only answer. Lots of them will be happy to explain to you what dire events will surely follow if you deviate from what they believe.

I don’t think God sets traps, or tricks us, or leaves us to wander blindly off into hell. I am just another human soul, seeking Him. I don’t know how to get you to heaven. I don’t know how to save your soul. I think Jesus is the Son of God. I would recommend that to you. So far, though, all you have is human recommendation. I can’t encourage you to accept that. But you are also a human soul, and what I know, you can find too.

If you would have the Lord visit your heart, then look into your heart, and see if it is the sort of place that the God of all creation, and source of all Love might wish to visit. Try hard to make is so. Learn how to love, and how to boldly live life as if Love itself were the most important thing. Ask God to make Himself part of your life. I wouldn’t worry much about specific theology.

You know love when you find it. If you have never known love, you might be misled and hurt by someone selling something else, but if you learn to give it, you will be able to receive it as well. When the greatest spirit of love you can imagine or perceive comes to dwell within your heart, you will know.

If I am wrong, you will be joining your heart to the pursuit of a fool’s dream, a living spirit of love itself. You will be giving love freely without a hope of any real benefit to yourself, and blindly accepting that love itself is a reason worth giving a life. You will die and never know that your whole life was wasted in no more important a thing than creating as much love as you could make in your lifetime.

You could do worse.

** Tris**

Imagine my signature begins five spaces to the right of center.

3

Hmm, I think the Universalist church says that. Pretty much that any attempt to get to know God is a valid one. Don’t take me at my word, just read “All I Need to Know I Learned in Kindergarten”. I think it’s written by a Universalist minister. If not, it’s still a fun read.

I sold my soul to Satan for a dollar. I got it in the mail.

4

I for one, though I am firmly an athiest, would welcome your open mind, and I wouldn’t have a problem with your beliefs.

I see no reason to limit yourself to holy books, that would mean you’d read the words of David Koresh, not Richard Feynman, even though I think you’d get more valuable lessons from like from RF.

I think that everyone takes some things on faith. To me, if I test some random sampling of what my chem textbook tells me, I have to take to rest on faith, or I’ll spend my whole life redoing the work of other. I don’t make the leap to believing in a god just because so many people do and have believed in one.

But, whatever your basic assumptions are, it’s the conclusions you reach that are important, imho. I may disagree with some of your reasoning, but if I find what you say generally fits with my notion of wisdom, then I’ll listen to what you have to say.

Few fundamental (any?) religious people will listen the same way, because your belief in something else directly contradicts their belief, and unlike yours, their will be shown to be all one unstable circular argument if part is disproven, so they’ll likely react very badly.

My suggestion is to hang out with athiests and agnostics. I know many agnostics who believe much the same thing you do, but without the belief in god. They simply believe that ideas are evolutionary, good ones are spead on, bad (unworkable) ones aren’t. If an idea helps people survive and want to pass it on, it’s wisdom by definition. That leads them to search old works, usually religious, because religious texts tend to be the oldest, for wisdom applicable to their life. Pretty well the same views as yours, but without the belief.

In hanging around with such a tolerant crowd, you might find others similar to yourself. Much more likely than you would be to find them on a message board dedicated to proving one specifically philosophy at the expense of all others.
I’m not great at latin, and don’t know a lot of the meaning of terms like secular humanism, so I can’t suggest a perfect name for your set of beliefs…

The best I can come up with is antheism, “theism” because it’s a belief, “an” because it’s not in a specific god. (Compare to monotheism and pantheism.)

5

Satan, I think you will find many like-minded people out there, and probably quite a few on this message board, from what I’ve read here. I think what you are saying is very sensible.

I’m not sure what to call myself - agnostic, atheist, or some more obscure term than I’m not familiar with. I don’t believe in a god of any kind and have never seen any evidence or had any experience that convinced me that any such thing existed. My personal feeling is that it is all superstition. However, I also don’t deny the possibility that some sort of higher power exists, and that those who believe in a god or gods are at least partially correct.

I’ve gone round and round with this for years and I think that what I’ve finally ended up with as my personal belief is something similar to what I see people calling Pascal’s wager.

I am a doubter. I have been all of my life, even when I was a child. If there is a god of some kind, who created me and is responsible for my existence, then I am as I was created to be. I am simply fulfilling the role I was created for, and am doing as my alleged creator intended. I don’t see how I can be ‘wrong’ and therefore displeasing to this ‘creator’.

If there is a ‘God’ or ‘gods’ that created me in this way, then I must serve some purpose by thinking this way and am doing as I should. If there isn’t any ‘God’, then I’m right and the universe is as I perceive it to be.

So I don’t agonize over it anymore - I’m comfortable with myself and my perception of the universe.

You’ve got a point there, brother - and one of these days I’m going to figure out what it is. - Cecil Adams

6

Satan asks: “…Please tell me what I am…”, and, after reading his post all I can come up with is: CONFUSED AND IN LOVE.

That’s what I think you are, my friend. And I also know you are VERY intelligent and kind.

You are just (believe it or not) GROWING UP.

Good luck with your quest.

Saludos.

“The invisible and the non-existent look very much alike.”
[Delos McKown]

7

I have also had questions regarding what my religious “label” should be if I were to have one. I have explained my beliefs to many people telling them that I believe a little of this religion and a little of that one. The response I most often get is that you can’t mix religions just to find a set of beliefs that suit you personally.

I say, {i]why not?* I mean, we have shoes custom-made, we have clothes custom-tailored, we have food prepared exactly the way we want it. Why should we place less importance on the very basis of our beliefs? These are the beliefs behind why we were born, why we die, why we exist, they are the basis for virtually every decision we will ever make–I can’t think of anything more important than that to have custom-tailored just for me! If there were anything in my life that I would not be content to accept a “one-size-fits-all” explanation for it would have to be my spiritual beliefs.

I think this may be somewhat in the vicinity of what you are feeling–or maybe not but I hope you can get something out of my explanation anyway. I second the above-mentioned suggestion of the Unitarian Church if you are looking for a group of people who might understand and even agree with your individual beliefs. At least, in most Unitarian Universalist churches, you will not be condemned in any way for not believing the “right” way.

Here’s wishing you good luck on your spiritual quest and hoping you find the right answers for you.

“You don’t have insurance? Well, just have a seat and someone will be with you after you die.” --Yes, another quality sig custom created by Wally!

A Jesusfied sig: Next time I covet thine opinion, I’ll ask for it!

8

I predict a move to GD or MPSIMS on this one, simply because there’s no set answer, but in the meantime:

I think the reason is imply because God, if Christianity is correct, has already given us the path to salvation and by choosing another faith, we’re rejecting that path. If I was to tell you “You can pass this course if you read Paradise Lost and write a paper on it” and you were to hand in a paper on Dante’s Inferno because you sincerely thought it was a better work, you still wouldn’t have done what I said was required to pass my course. Therefore, you fail. Despite your intentions, you hadn’t done what I said was necessary and it wouldn’t be fair to those who had done so to allow you to pass the class.

Likewise for the Jews. If God says that the way to gain Heaven is through Jesus, that’s what you have to do. Your best intentions aside, God has given clear instructions on how to be saved and you ignored them in favor of something else.

Personally, I never really understood the idea that Christians (or any other faith for that matter) need to ‘accept’ other people’s beliefs as valid. I’m not saying not to tolerate them, but if you sincerely believe the Bible then the Bible states that Jesus is the only way and political correctness has nothing to do with it. Likewise for the “who knows the right way?” arguements. If there is a God and an afterlife, then chances are there is but one way to attain it. There’s lots of theories of evolution but the reality is that there is one truth to how we came to be. We might not know that truth yet, but it’s there and whoever believes that one truth is correct and everyone else is simply wrong whether we know it and can prove it or not. If there’s a God and an afterlife then some of us will make it and most of us won’t. Your own choice on what you feel confident in believing will come from your own research, readings and faith.

Most of what I’ve written here is from a Christian viewpoint simply because that mainly seemed to be what Satan was asking about. I don’t intend to insult anyone else’s beliefs and don’t claim to have all the answers, but in terms of Christianity, the Bible pretty much speaks for itself on what you have to do and believe.

“I guess one person can make a difference, although most of the time they probably shouldn’t.”

9

Why? People are different… Languages are different… Even within the faith of a certain belief such as Christianity, you have factions at war with each other. Protestants say the Catholic rites are “of Satan.”

And you can quote those verses from the New Testament, but then someone will come in here and say, “Jesus was not messiah,” and show this through the Old Testament’s unfulfilled prophesies. And then you can fight them on it, like the fighting that has gone on for 2,000 years now. Like it’ll really unveil some universal truth all of a sudden or something…

And then, what of Islam? And what of the many people in the far East who NEVER learned the Western religions until many years after they were started for the most part?

Sorry. As I said above, every religion says, “This is the way,” and every religion has valid (to them) reasons for saying as much. And I refuse to flip a coin for this, take a popularity poll or anythign that flippant.

As I said above, I know what I believe. The truth - my personal truth - has been spelled out to me as I have lived in a neighborhood in Brooklyn that was equal parts Orthodox Jew and Muslim. I grew up with a backing of both Judaism and Catholicism in my life. I have a brother who is now a youth minister in a non-denominational fundamentalist Christian church.

I’ve heard what everyone says.

But I am listening to what GOD says. What God tells ME.

Frankly, I would rather burn in hell than go to a place which would not welcome my grandmother, a devout Jesus-loving Catholic her whole life (my Protestant fundie brother-in-law questioned her salvation according to his little rules, and he’s not aloone), my Jewish mother - who, while not spiritual in the classic sense, always spoke of the God she learned about - and all of the many others who are seeking, as best they can, to know a God who has seemingly left a myriad of different ways to find Him.

So, leave the “Jesus is the only way” stuff back on the LBMB where I was pelted with it repeatedly, please. No disrespect intended, but I believe I already said that I’ve heard it all before, and I don’t buy it.

All I wanted to know is what I was and am. I believe that some posters have put up a few good options for me. I, of course, am looking on my own as well.

Yer pal,
Satan

10

Satan, there is no god, there is no father christmas. Live with it.

11

Blow me, crotch goblin.

Putz.

(Lest anyone think I’m gonna totally change or anything drastic like that…)

Yer pal,
Satan

12

Read the books of Alan Watts. I would start with “The Book: On the Taboo Against Knowing Who You Are”, “The Supreme Identity”,“The Meaning of Happiness” and “Beyond Theology, The Art of Godmanship”. He offers great insight into Christianity by comparing it with Buddhism and Hinduism. Your understanding of Christianity will never be the same.

13

I know this wasn’t your question, but it bears saying…

No way, buddy, that’s your job!

FWIW, my experiences with nondenominational churches were that the sense of meaning or purpose was lost. Church became just a place to go on Sunday and to feel good about because you went, and it didn’t mean as much to be a member of their religion. That’s just my opinion, of course, and YMMV.

I wish that I could give a few more churches that you chould check out, but you’re probably way ahead of me on that. I don’t know. You might just want to call on a few Rabbis, Priests, Pastors, etc., and tell them point blank that this is where you stand and ask if their God will condemm you for this. Some will probably reject what you say, but aren’t you just looking for one place of worship? I know my wife’s church tends to get older pastors. Maybe it’s just because they took the long way to get to their calling, but they seem to understand a little religious questioning.

I’m glad you posted this. My mom’s Catholic, and my Dad was Presbyterian, but I didn’t attend church when I was growing up. I looked into a few churches and religions when younger, but I wasn’t ready to settle into anything. I’ve wanted to look into the Presbyterian church for a couple of years now. Maybe I should use this as a hint.

One question: what do you want from a place of worship?

14

Satan, bless you! My heartfelt prayers that you find what you are looking for.

I am a Christian, and I chose Christianity because I believe it is right. Or as close as I know “right” to be. That’s what most of us do. Ya gotta go with what you feel is right. You soul-search, you meditate, pray, you study. You have personal experiences. And then you eventually choose. No one cn choose for you, no one can nag or preach to you. (But you already know that!)

I have often supposed that I could be wrong, (at least in some of the niggly details) of the “right” of my choice of religion. But I’m doing my best. That’s all any of us can do. IF there is one specific “right” way, and anything that varies from that even a little bit is WRONG, most of us are screwed. I don’t believe it works that way. You just have to do the best you can. I believe God honors that.

I believe that God has much mercy and understanding. No, I am not trying to say that all faiths and beliefs are equal, pick one out of a hat, it’ll be fine. I chose one, specifically, that I thought fit the best for me. So will you.

The basic thing is to ask God for answers, keep your mind open. Which I completely believe you are going to do! Bravo.

Polydactyl Cats Unlimited
“A Cat Cannot Have Too Many Toes”

15

ok, this is streching back, way back, in my mind…but doesn’t Hinduism pretty much say that all-is-one? they don’t care how you arive at it, but that eventually you’ll reach nirvana? as in all religious paths lead to a summit, but the only difference is how direct of a path you take?

or maybe i didn’t pay attention in class…

16

I’ll just throw in that I’m a person that believes in a higher power. What that higher power is is not currently known. Any one religion could be partially or wholly correct or incorrect. As my life progresses I try to sort through my morals and attitudes and reconciling them with those of others. At the time of my death (and on a daily basis until then) I hope to have done more good than harm. I myself have never been much for any type of organized religion and I see no real need to celebrate my beliefs with anyone other than myself.

17

You’re a lucky bastard! :slight_smile:

18

I had a buddy who converted to Baha’i, pointing to its tenet that all religions are simply one search for God. I used to tease him that since Baha’i was about the 137th religion to say that, why didn’t the followers of Baha’i and the other 135 religions go join the first one?

The serious answer to that flippant remark is that if we are trying to come to God, we need to do it in a way that makes sense to us as persons. This means that we need to be able to find people who have experienced similar events/feelings/thoughts in their lives and expressed them in ways that touch a responsive chord in our lives.

My views differ a bit from your experiences with fundies and with Jophiel’s views. I find that the great teachers of each faith tend to see the goodness that other faiths bring to the world. I do not believe that God has provided one single unalterable set of rituals or dogma that provides the only key to reach Him.

Your remark on the various fundies being extremely frightened is perceptive and telling. Whether it is the extreme participants among the LBMB or the Jewish chat you stumbled into or the imams of Afghanistan, these people are extremely frightened that the Truth they were taught as children will not be sufficient, and they clutch it more tightly so as to be sure of its reality.

(I do not include Jophiel or SoxFan59 or Navigator or any of dozens of devout Fundamentalists in the last statement. The reference is to extreme fundies who turn their fear into hatred of the other.)

One reason I am comfortable sticking with the RCC is that it has (finally) made explicit the recognition that God is not up above condemning to hell everyone who does not believe the RCC doctrines. I have read a number of Catholic, Jewish, Protestant, and Islamic scholars who have invested the energy to study the other faiths and who have come to the conclusion that while their own sect is the one that they would choose, there is a great deal to be learned from each of the other groups. There have been small but active outreach and dialogue groups among all the large religious groups for 40 years or more. These groups don’t receive the headlines that a Jimmy Swaggart or an Ian Paisley or an Archbishop LeFebvre get, but we have finally reached a point in history where most of the better representatives of many faiths are willing to exchange ideas with other faiths. (Of course, each group has a somewhat larger and louder faction of fearful no-nothings who would rather hate, but I am hopeful that those people will not provide the future direction for most religions.)

I don’t know what you are, Brian, and I have no idea where you ought to seek. I do wish you well.

Tom~

19

I’ll admit I don’t know much about it, but take a look at Baha’i; from what I’ve heard of their beliefs, they sound very close to the Supreme Monolitheism as you describe Karen Anderson describing it.

I realize third-person anecdotal 'I-think-so’s aren’t exactly the best way to find Truth, but it’s all I’ve got. Sorry.

JMCJ

Give to Radiskull!

20

As the concept of God (Creator, Entirety, Sacred, All) is so enormous, is it any wonder that, puny humans that we are, tend to focus on one facet or translation of the experience and miss the important stuff?

There are probably a lot of different labels you could paste on yourself right now, Brian - deist (someone who believes that God created the universe and then sat back to see what would happen), theist (someone who believes that God is continually present and exerts influence over everything), transcendentalist (everything that is, is God, humans are innately good), or even one flavor or another of Pagan (we throw the best parties).

Really, though, the last word is up to YOU. I would recommend that you continue reading, but start looking at religions that say from the outset they’re not the One and Only Way.

Good luck, and blessed be.