Please tell me what I am...

Great Debates
21

Have you delved into the Eastern religions yet?

Den’s recommendation of Alan Watts is a good one; an ex-minister, he tailored his books to Western sensibilities and made the ways of Vedanta and Zen clearer to the way we think here in the good ol’ USA.

Good translations of the Analects of Confuicius and Lao-Tse’s The Way of Tao should also be on your bedside table.

I’ve recently picked up G.K. Chesterton’s The Everlasting Man, which was his rebuttal to H.G. Wells’ The Outline of History, which Chesterton felt was too agnostic. Old G.K. was one intelligent sonofabitch, and he ended up converting to Roman Catholicism. I’m trying to figure out why.

So if I come in here one day swinging a censer and lighting candles to Saint Swithin, you know who to blame.

Uke

22

Great Debates strikes me as the place that will bring the most helpful responses to the OP. I’ll move it over there.

NYC IRL III
is on April 15th. Do you have what it takes?

23

Satan,

You might dig-up the Could you believe? thread from GD. The last couple of pages included some thoughts on what the Bible has to say on salvation for “others.” As usual, Polycarp had some thoughtful perspectives on this.

As a Christian, it is hard to deny the texts that for a variety of reasons have been accepted as part of the canon. These scriptures make it pretty clear that Jesus declared himself the only way. The apostolic writings confirm this in various ways.

Nevertheless, Poly and others suggested that those that earnestly sought a god who loved mercy, justice, and love (all Judeo-christian perceptions of Godly attributes) would, in fact, find God (with a capital G). A person who finds God this way, may believe in the name of Jesus without knowing the name of Jesus.

This is quite a bit of hermeneutical gymnastics, but the upshot is this … Several of us believe that if we, as mere mortals, can posit an escape hatch then a God who is infinite in mercy as well as justice, might open that escape hatch and welcome the seeker with open arms.

God Bless,

Tinker

24

I don’t understand why you need ANY religions or any gods—especially since things seem to be going OK for you right now! Kick back and enjoy it, hon—it’s sheer luck, and you’ve got a good roll of the dice. “The Universe” doesn’t give a goddam about you or Drain, but your friends do, and you and Drain do, and that’s what matters.

It’s all a roller-coaster ride, toots, and all you can do is sit back and scream “wheeee!”

25

Ike: “So if I come in here one day swinging a censer and lighting candles to Saint Swithin, you know who to blame.”

—And I’ll tug on your sleeve and drawl, “Love the drag, dahling, but your purse is on fire!”

—Tallu

26

Brian,

to quote another wise responce to your query…

You can read all the history of all the churches and all the horrible things done in the name of many a God, and come away confused.

You need to listen to your heart, and not let anyone else’s interpreation of a religon or faith sway you from what God is telling you.

Don’t let the historical mistakes of the church, or any other religion interfere with your relationship with God.

You have to believe, you have to reason, you have to weigh.

Keep asking questions, and keep asking God. The truth will become apparent to you. Even if it doesn’t line up 100% with anyone else.

Peace.

† Jon †
Phillipians 4:13

27

Okay, okay… I know the sentiment, but I can’t help but say this, and I’m laughing my ass off as I say this:

Do you write Chick Tracts in your spare time? :smiley:

Yer pal,
Satan

28

Satan: I second the motion to find a church of whatever denomination and religion that fulfills you. You’ll probably hear some stuff anywhere that you don’t agree with; that’s the way things are at my church for me, too.

Nav: Wow. I have so much respect for you, man. I mean, wow.

–John

Martin.
It’s what’s for dinner.
Brought to you by IATeALeC*
*Indiana Academy Teen Association for the Legalization of Cannibalism.

29

Well, as an Orthodox Jew, I’d say you’re Jewish…but of course, from one of the statements in your original post, I’d say you already knew that.

If you’re looking for a name for your current religious outlook, I’d say “deist,” i.e., one who believes that G-d exists in some form, but doesn’t necessarily subscribe to a currently organized religion.

I’d love to know what kind of Jewish chat showered you with vitriol; I can only guess that they got the mistaken impression that you were a “Jew for J” or something like that. While most Jews (there are bigots in every crowd, unfortunately) treat Christians in general with respect, the Jews for J organization is committed to preying on the ignorance of uneducated Jews and is both deserving of and in receipt of much vitriol from the Jewish community (including myself).

The best place to learn about Judaism, even if you’re just exploring, would be a beginner’s yeshiva for adults, such as [URL [Ohr"]http://ohr.org.il]Ohr](http://ohr.org.il) Sameach. Such places are very good with questions of all sorts. (Their web site even answers the “Why don’t Jews accept JC” question - without vitriol, but by merely stating the reasons, clinically and clearly. The exact address for that is http://www.ohr.org.il/ask/ask00j.htm .

One caution: Before doing any more serious exploration, I hope you have discussed this fully with Libby and/or are doing it together with her. I know several couples who have broken up when one of the two became more interested in religion than the other…and ironically so, as the other often followed suit, but not at the pace that the first one was ready for. You two seem to have something very special going, and religion is a core life issue that cannot be glossed over in a relationship. If you are taking a spiritual.religious journey, make sure she’s included in it…every step of the way.

And good luck.

Chaim Mattis Keller
ckeller@kozmo.com

“Sherlock Holmes once said that once you have eliminated the
impossible, whatever remains, however improbable, must be
the answer. I, however, do not like to eliminate the impossible.
The impossible often has a kind of integrity to it that the merely improbable lacks.”
– Douglas Adams’s Dirk Gently, Holistic Detective

30

Darn it, let’s try that link again: Ohr Sameach

Chaim Mattis Keller

31

Satan, my dear,

I do believe that you might be a Deist.

Let me tell you a story:

I had been going through the same sort of religious struggles as you. I was born and raised Jewish, but my parents are basically atheist. There are many things that I love about Judaism (historical, cultural, ritual), but I never liked the religious part. I found no inspiration there. I guess you could have called me a Jewish agnostic.

As I entered my twenties, I started searching out other religions. I found that there were tachings in all of them that I felt inspired by, but I could never accept the theologies as a whole. Even the Ba’hai religion didn’t seem right. It was too God-focused.

See, that was the problem with most of them. They were focused on God. Now, I am not an atheist, but I have trouble believing that God is up there in heaven (or wherever) directing things. That just never sat right with me. The few religions that I explored that were not God-focused were not right for me for other reasons.

I was basically a good person trying to do the right thing. I felt a need for some kind of religion, but couldn’t find one that worked for me. This troubled me greatly.

Lo and behold, one day I discovered Deism. And then my life made sense again.

So what is Deism? It is not a unified theology, so you will have to explore it for yourself, but here are some basics:

– Deists believe that God does not meddle in human affairs. God created the world, but he/she just kind of lets things happen. Deists generally do not have an anthropomorphic view of God. “God” means different things to different people. My personal view of God, while very difficult to explain, can be simplistically described as “Mother Nature.”

– Deists believe in a basic universal moral and ethical code that can only be figured out by the use of reason. The code, of course, changes over time. Deists think alot about this stuff.

– Deists do not believe in “revealed religion.” Revealed religions are based on the the teachings of people, who were supposedly inspired by God–or are demi-gods themselves. Think of Moses, Buddha, Jesus, Mohammed. A Deist God wouldn’t/couldn’t communicate with humans in that way.

And you don’t have to worry if ou don’t believe bits and pieces of the doctrine, because other than the few basics (and I probably left something out) there is no doctrine.

My one quibble with a lot of present-day Deists is that they seem to be hostile toward revealed religions. I am not. The revealed religions provide us with an excellent basis (and shortcut) to figuring out a moral and ethical code. After all, the Ten Commandments are brilliant, and the teachings of Buddha are brilliant, and the teachings of Jesus are also brilliant. I get to mine them all for gems of understanding.

Anyway, your story resonated with me, because it reminded me of my own story.

I have a personal question, and feel free not to answer: Did you find that your uncertainties about religion became more pressing as you decided to enter into marriage?

I hope that this has been helpful. Good luck.

  • Bean
32

You’ve found the person who’s hopefully going to be your life’s partner, lover, best friend. How absolutely wonderful for you both! Mazel Tov!

I don’t know what your plans are for the future but if children are in the cards then you will learn a different kind of love you’ve never known before. I don’t care if you have nephews, nieces, cousins, whatever… what you feel for your own kids will knock you on your ass.

If you are looking for god and trying to comprehend your own existance then you need look no further than your wife-to-be and future offspring. There is more to love and cherish in that than in all the houses of worship in all the world, combined. Devote youself to them and you will get immeasurable dividends. If you are looking to get that feeling from a book, no amount of holy scriptures will suffice.

Fair winds to you on your journey.

33

Satan,
If you feel like God is in your heart, don’t bother trying to put a name on it. It’s not the prayer book or the building that makes a difference in our lives, it’s letting God speak to us, and through us.

34

Sort of a simulpost there–but I am flattered to see that Chaim sort of agrees with me about what Brian is!

And since I forgot to mention it, I do still consider myself “Jewish.” I do believe in the racial definition of Judaism, so I am a Jew no matter what. Also, I remain culturally and socially Jewish. I reveled in the wonderful rituals of my Jewish wedding. But I am not religiously Jewish.

So, I guess that makes me a Jewish Deist. Or a Deist Jew. When you’re done telling Satan what he is, maybe you could tell me what I am!

35

I second (or third) that you are now a Diest. I also second (or third), that your might find some sort of home among the Unitarians. My Unitarian church even offers a “what am I” kind of study group/intro to spirituality.

I consider myself a Cultural Catholic (all the guilt, none of the religion), an emotional Diest (must be a God, can’t emotionally concieve of a world without Her), and an intellectual agnostic (can’t prove there is a God, and enough of a skeptic to know that my emotions could be leading me wrong). I vary my answer on what religion I am based on the circumstances, and sometimes answer Unitarian, although I almost never show up in church, having little need for a social club about spirituality. However, I’ve found that the Unitarians don’t mind, and it keeps the explainations simple (most people are looking for denomination, not philosophy, when they ask what religion you are).

May whatever you search for bring you peace of mind…

36

I don’t see what the Debate is here, if this was MPSIMS I wouldn’t touch this, but since it’s in this forum. . .

Neither the trench nor the bed are to be trusted in the search for God.

I’ll have to agree with E1skeptic that “What you are” is confused and growing up. You have now taken the first two steps down the path of yearning, need, and irrational justification trod upon by millions of men and women since the beginning of time. Your journey will take you past Fell Dens of Worship where men become hollow and lose their true souls and Dripping Books of Scripture whereby men are twisted and stuffed with a measure of insanity to replace the gaping hole in their hearts.

You will find no God down this path, only maddening carnival relfections of yourself.

Yet to be reconciled with the reality of the dark for a moment, I go on wandering from dream to dream.

37

I don’t see what the Debate is here, if this was MPSIMS I wouldn’t touch this, but since it’s in this forum. . .

Neither the trench nor the bed are to be trusted in the search for God.

I’ll have to agree with E1skeptic that “What you are” is confused and growing up. You have now taken the first two steps down the path of yearning, need, and irrational justification trod upon by millions of men and women since the beginning of time. Your journey will take you past Fell Dens of Worship where men become hollow and lose their true souls and Dripping Books of Scripture whereby men are twisted and stuffed with a measure of insanity to replace the gaping hole in their hearts.

You will find no God down this path, only maddening carnival reflections of yourself. When you finally near the end of the path, you will find it has looped back around to join up with every other path (including the one you just left), all of them leading to the same exact place: Death

Yet to be reconciled with the reality of the dark for a moment, I go on wandering from dream to dream.

38

He who knows not but knows he knows not, is a student, teach him.

39

You know, my dad thinks a lot like this to a degree.

The difference is he isn’t an asshole about it…

Yer pal,
Satan

40

BTW, I’ve seen a couple of people (including the OP) use the term “monolitheist.” I was wondering: do you mean "monotheist, i.e. believer that there is a single god rather than several, or did you actually mean “monolithist” (which I take to mean "worshiper of a big black monolith like the one in 2001: A Space Odyssey)?

Brian, I agree with the people that have counseled you not to be in a big hurry to hang a label on your belief. As Sting said, “men go crazy in congregations and only get better one by one.”

For another quasi-parable about all paths to God being equally correct, see C.S. Lewis’s Narnia book, The Last Battle. I’m paraphrasing here, but a follower of Tash (an evil god), who is himself a good man, meets Aslan (who can be seen as representing Jesus in case you’ve never read the books) and is dismayed to learn he’s been worshiping the wrong god all his life. Aslan says not to worry because all the good works the man has done in Tash’s name he accords as service done to him. He remarks something like, “if a man do a kindness in the name of Tash, he has sworn by me, though he know it not; and if a man is cruel, though he do it in the name of Aslan, it is by Tash he has sworn and by Tash the deed is accepted.”

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