Nothing about this has changed.
For purposes of this reply, using “sex” as I think Aspidistra means it, to refer to sex as assigned at birth based on the appearance of the genitals:
All these arguments that it’s impossible to distinguish by sex unless everybody’s genitals are visible; and even if they were it still wouldn’t be possible to distinguish by what appears to be your idea of sex because a) not everybody’s genitals neatly fit in one of two boxes and b) currently visible genitals may not match sex assigned at birth? No, I don’t see why any of that is even applicable to when and whether to distinguish by gender identity.
In most social situations, including most of those currently distinguished by gender, sex is completely invisible; usually far more so than gender. While some people give no clues to their gender in their clothing, makeup, voice, and body language, far more people do so than go around with their genitals visible. Plus, see a) and b) above.
And there are very few situations in which you need to know.
But here’s a hint: a normal person in jeans and shirt going into the women’s john is indicating that their gender is female. And a normal person in jeans and shirt using the women’s john in a normal fashion isn’t doing you any harm. A person behaving in a significantly abnormal fashion in the women’s john can be reported, no matter what their sex / gender is.
This is fine because you’re not the gender police. You don’t need to “tell” the gender identity of anyone, because they will tell you themselves whenever you actually need to know.
Spotted the hate:
Spotted some more:
You’re a one-trick pony trying (over and over and over again) to defend the indefensible. Why the community here continues to play your game is fucking beyond me.
And what is it that you think you’re doing? Women are not weak. They are not shrinking violets who need their fainting couch at the first sign of a penis. They do not need to be kept hidden away from working men, and their natural bodily functions do not contribute to a disordered society.
Which are the reasons given for your much touted sex-segregated spaces in the first place.
In the future, try to have a higher opinion of women.
FYI, it is possible to faint from laughing too hard.
Buck Angel is my go-to example when people talk about not wanting a man to be able to put on a wig and hang out in the women’s bathroom.
Sorry, most of the links no longer work.
What evidence is there that they don’t do the job? Specifically, what evidence is there that keeping penises out is what makes them work and if any kind of penis or XY chromosome crosses the boundary they no longer function?
I guess that since the original thread’s story appears to have as many holes in it as our beloved colanders it was appropriate to start a new thread.
The analogy I was thinking of was segregation. You’d have public places where “normal” people could go and separate but equal public places set aside for use by transgendered people. A simple solution to avoid gender mixing and the possibility that one of them might try to marry your daughter.
This better?
I’m sure that guy would never experience any issues going into a woman’s locker room, right @Aspidistra?
TERFs and other trans-haters seem to be incapable of even recognizing the existence of transmen. It totally throws off all their fear-mongering and bullshit assumptions. By their preferred notion of biological sex (i.e. chromosomes or whatever), then hulking, bearded transmen have to use women’s restrooms.
So, most often, ISTM, they totally ignore questions and scenarios involving masculine-appearing transmen.
I believe a picture similar to that one, if not that same one (minus the captioning) was the one I used for the link in the Alabama bathroom thread.
I think the first link in the loophole thread was just a random guy wearing a wig (not that he was trying to appear female, just a random picture of a guy with a wig on). It would have been meant to point out the absurdity of comparing a trans-woman to a man wearing a wig for the sole purpose of hanging out in the women’s bathroom under the guise (loophole) of being trans.
My point was, and still is, if you don’t want a trans-woman in the women’s bathroom or locker room with your daughter, then the alternative is a trans-man in the women’s bathroom or locker room with your daughter. Hence the picture of Buck Angel looking like mister fucking macho.
And, I’ll admit it’s a gotcha. The question, more or less, requires the person to either pick one of those options or admit that they don’t want trans people out in public or at least not using public restrooms.
I think/hope a lot of this is going to get better over the next few generations. Younger kids grow up with this just being normal and don’t really give it a lot of thought. They’ll, hopefully, pass that attitude on to their kids and so on. I can still clearly remember having Will and Grace on one day when my (at the time) very young daughter walked into the room. She watched for a few minutes and then asked if ‘that man is married to that other man’. I said yes, and mentally prepared myself for a conversation. But she said ‘okay’ and that was that. She was just trying to follow the story, that they were gay didn’t even cross her mind as something to ask about.
It was really nice to realize that since she didn’t grow up thinking these relationships were objectionable, it wasn’t something she’d have to unlearn.
It’s wishful thinking: they wish they didn’t exist, so they go ahead and act like it too.
As was said upthread, can’t they just start pushing for separate-but-equal facilities as a third option?
Could that be called cowardice?
I suppose it could, but I don’t find the label particularly helpful in this context as it tends to smear actual cowards who may be having entirely understandable reactions to real threats to their well-being, not merely fantastical/hypothetical threats as with trans-hating bigots.
So I’ll just stick with calling it trans-hating bigotry or the like. Out of respect for genuine cowards.
Fair enough.
My hope as well. My son had a friend all through grade school, a fellow member of his Boy Scout troop, who transitioned just about when they were both college freshman. They were still playing video games when I came home from work one day, same as before. It changed nothing in their friendship, just as his college roommate being black was simply irrelevant.
I say this not as a vicarious virtue signal. My son thinks the things my generation worries about are crazy, and we’re mostly nuts. Dangerous, but nuts.
Sure, but that’s just not an option in a lot of situations, at least not when it comes to retro-fitting. Besides, it seems like kind of a slap in the face to come right out and tell a trans person that they’re not allowed to use the men’s or women’s bathroom. A different option might be to allow women and trans-women in the women’s bathroom. Men and trans-men in the men’s bathroom and the ‘separate but equal’ bathroom for anyone. Whether it’s a trans women that doesn’t want to use the women’s bathroom or a cis woman that doesn’t want to be in the women’s bathroom with a trans-woman.
The point being that we aren’t separating out trans people, just people that don’t want to use either of the multi occupant bathrooms.
But, personally, while it’ll likely take years or decades, I think we’ll be fine with a women’s and men’s bathroom. Trans people can use the one they’re comfortable with and most people won’t care one way or the other. FWIW, I suspect trans people are more uncomfortable in a public restroom full of cis people than the other way around.
As a thought experiment. If you want to a store/bar/library whatever, and they had “Trans Male” and “Trans Female” bathrooms only, but welcomed cis people to use the one they’re comfortable with, what would you, assuming you’re cis, do?
Having said all this, it should be noted that I’ve never discussed any of this with a trans person and haven’t (at least knowingly) interacted with many trans people. I could very well be way off base on all this.
I feel like I should re-watch the South Park episode where Cartman pretended to be trans so he could have his own bathroom. I don’t recall how it played out but Matt and Trey (and the other writers) are usually pretty good at exploring these types of situations.