Star Trek -- the "I saw it" thread **SPOILERS**

[Raguleader]

@carnivorousplant

I may live longer if I all it Star Trek Lite rather than Star Trek 90210.

Thanks!

All the fun, none of the calories?

[carnivorousplant]

@Raguleader

All the fun, none of the calories?

All of the sarcasm, none of the beating beaten with a big stick.

[Waenara]

@Lobohan

@Bryan Ekers

So where were they for 25 years? Lurking? Skulking? Killing time by posting on message boards?

They were waiting. What’s so hard to understand about that? I’d assume by the way that they were somewhere in the Klingon Neutral Zone, since they came out of hiding in preparation for Spock’s arrival and (as Uhura heard) destroyed 49 Klingon ships that presumably detected them in their space.

@Bryan Ekers

How and why were they in Klingon space, anyway? Aside from throwing it in as a nod to similar references to the first and fourth films, that doesn’t make any sense.

@Bryan Ekers

Except in the sense that over that 25 years, they never once reconsidered the idea, not took any steps to curtail the disaster that destroyed Romulus. This argument assumes that for 25 years, they remained so obsessed and focused on this one goal that it never occurred to them to just attack the Federation at will. They’re implausibly driven and yet implausibly patient.

@Tanbarkie

All of your ideas posted in this thread, whether it be Nero “training his crew over 25 years,” or how “all Romulan civilian ships are armed,” or “Nero not wanting to return to Romulus for emotional reasons,” are perfectly reasonable ways to justify the holes in the narrative. But none of them are in the movie. You made them up. That they happen to be fairly logical fanwanks by Trek standards makes no difference - the fact of the matter is that a good writing team would have found a way to put such explanations into the movie in a way that didn’t break the narrative flow.

So do deleted scenes count for anything? They’re not fanwank, but they’re not canon either, since they weren’t in the theatrical release.

Apparently, deleted scene(s) showed that Nero spent at least a portion of the 25 years in a Klingon prison. He then escaped from prison and destroyed a bunch of Klingon ships (the ones Uhura heard about). So Nero wasn’t just biding his time for 25 years, and it’s difficult to notify Vulcan high command about a future danger when you’re being held in prison. Also, in prison he had more time to sit and stew about the situation, become more enraged about losing his wife, and generally getting crazier.

This website has a couple videos talking about deleted scenes. From the second video at that page:

@J.J. Abrams

There are deleted scenes in the movie, some of which I wanted to keep in, but ultimately thought were too confusing, or not necessary in the film. And it’s of course crazy, because when you’re shooting those scenes you never think that they’re disposable – you think, “this is critical for the movie” – and all of a sudden you realize the movie needs to lose them. So, there are a couple – one of them is this whole sequence on a Klingon prison planet where Nero’s being held. There are a number of scenes in the sequence that we just pulled out of the movie – but he was terrific in that stuff.

At TrekMovie.com:

Probably the biggest section of the film that has been cut is a whole sub-plot involving Nero on the Klingon prison planet Rura Penthe. Even though it isn’t in the film, clips from this section of the film have worked there way into various trailers, including Nero’s line “the wait is over.” This section of the film is actually not entirely gone. There is a reference in the film to a battle ‘at a Klingon prison planet’ and there is also a brief glimpse of Nero’s past during a flashback sequence (which has also been seen in one of the TV commercials). However, neither of these things makes it clear that Nero was actually a prisoner on Rura Penthe.

From Memory Alpha:

A deleted scene from the film shows that Nero was captured and imprisoned on Rura Penthe after the Narada was crippled by George Kirk’s attack. It was his escape from Rura Penthe which Uhura heard about in the transmission she received regarding an attack on a Klingon prison planet. During his confrontation with the Klingons, Nero’s ear was partially bitten off.

[RickJay]

@Skald_the_Rhymer

Dude, we’re in Cafe Society talking about Star Trek. Everything here that doesn’t have an IMDB reference is an opinion.

I was mostly kidding, but certainly Spock gives Saavik the conn as a joke on Kirk–though perhaps not out of boredom. Spock is, after all, a fairly subtle fellow; he may have had some other purpose. How do you see the scene?

Partially, it’s a teacher putting his student on the spot as a learning exercise. But partially, Saavik is his protege - she reminds him of him. He’s very, very proud of her, has confidence in her, and he’s showing her off.

[Bryan_Ekers]

@Skald_the_Rhymer

This is why TWoK works. It’s not about the Genesis device, as it would have been if it had been a TNG episode; nor is it about revenge, as it would have been if it were a Voyager episode. It’s about Kirk realizing he’s on the downward slope of that long march toward the grave, and that he hates his life because he hates not being in the saddle. That’s why it works: because 60s!Kirk isn’t a starchild whose had everything handed to him by fate, and because we like him and want him to to succeed emotionally as he has professionally.

Can you picture 90210-Kirk going “NNEEEEROOOOOO!!!” in impotent fury, or is he just too damn cool for that?

[carnivorousplant]

@Bryan_Ekers

in impotent fury,

Kirk was just lulling Kahn into a false sense of security.

[Skald_the_Rhymer]

@Bryan_Ekers

Can you picture 90210-Kirk going “NNEEEEROOOOOO!!!” in impotent fury, or is he just too damn cool for that?

Except Kirk’s scream of KHAN!!! isn’t done in impudent fury; it’s a put-on. He wants Khan to think he thinks he’s helpless. If he doesn’t react over-the-top to perpetual marooning, Khan will think, “Wait…why isn’t he freaking out? Something must be up.”

Shatner was pretending to be Kirk pretending to be raging at this own impotence. It’s not a dude playing a dude playing a different dude, but it’s close.

[Bryan_Ekers]

I never bought that interpretation. Kirk looks angry and I like it better if he is angry. there’s no wink to the people around him. He previously was trying to taunt Khan (“you have Genesis, but you don’t have me”) and he was certainly upset by seeing Tyrell blow himself away, and when Khan just shrugs it off and declares victory, the frustration is reasonable and apparent.

[carnivorousplant]

@Bryan_Ekers

I never bought that interpretation. Kirk looks angry and I like it better if he is angry.

It’s also an effort to fool the audience…er, it’s poetic license to make the repairs Spock has made look more cool.

[Bryan_Ekers]

Well, I like the “angry” better, and I didn’t hear about this subterfuge explanation until 20 years after the movie came out, so we’ll have to agree to disagree.

[eleanorigby]

I am now on a Star Trek kick and have either checked out from the library or rented the movies, except ST4.
I am such a geek.

[Skald_the_Rhymer]

@Bryan_Ekers

Well, I like the “angry” better, and I didn’t hear about this subterfuge explanation until 20 years after the movie came out, so we’ll have to agree to disagree.

The subterfuge explanation only hit me this afternoon, actually. My point in sharing it was that Kirk’s rage is a plot hole. There’s no reason for him to be so pissed, as he knows Spock is on his way to come get them.

[carnivorousplant]

@Skald_the_Rhymer

My point in sharing it was that Kirk’s rage is a plot hole.

No, Sir, it is poetic license to make the arrival of the heroically damaged but a fit opponent for Defiant more dramatic for us and to lull Kahn into a False Sense of Security.
“There she is! And not so damaged as we were led to believe (by Shatner’s atrocious acting)! All the better!”

any of you guys seen Kahn and Skald the Rhymer together at the same time? Hmmm?

[Skald_the_Rhymer]

@carnivorousplant

No, Sir, it is poetic license to make the arrival of the heroically damaged but a fit opponent for Defiant more dramatic for us and to lull Kahn into a False Sense of Security.
“There she is! And not so damaged as we were led to believe (by Shatner’s atrocious acting)! All the better!”

any of you guys seen Kahn and Skald the Rhymer together at the same time? Hmmm?

I would not have marooned Kirk in such a way. I’d have transported him halfway–that is, dematerialized him, aborted the rematerialization, and dumped the buffer and all backups. Then I’d have hauled ass out of the area before Spock could call for reinforcements and then sold Genesis to the Klingons.

[carnivorousplant]

@Skald_the_Rhymer

I would not have marooned Kirk in such a way. I’d have transported him halfway–that is, dematerialized him, aborted the rematerialization, and dumped the buffer and all backups. Then I’d have hauled ass out of the area before Spock could call for reinforcements and then sold Genesis to the Klingons.

Well of course not, but the movie would have lasted about five minutes. Just like most TOS episodes logically, if I may use the term, should have begun with Kirk saying, “Mr. Spock, set your phaser to kill and shoot that thing.”
:rolleyes:
Although Mr. Spock logically would not need to be reminded to do that, Kirk was the carefull type, and Mr. Spock was know to leave his phaser set to “Polmeek Soup” in order to open tins more easily.

[Skald_the_Rhymer]

@carnivorousplant

Well of course not, but the movie would have lasted about five minutes. Just like most TOS episodes logically, if I may use the term, should have begun with Kirk saying, “Mr. Spock, set your phaser to kill and shoot that thing.”
:rolleyes:
Although Mr. Spock logically would not need to be reminded to do that, Kirk was the carefull type, and Mr. Spock was know to leave his phaser set to “Polmeek Soup” in order to open tins more easily.

I was, of course, referring to the accusation that I am secretly Khan.

Anyway, most episodes would not have begun that way, because, although Starfleet is a largely military organization, Kirk’s Enterprise was not merely a warship; it was an exploration vessel as well. I can think of few episodes of TOS in which “shoot the bastards in scene 1” was the appropriate response, and many in which it would have been the exact wrong thing to do.

[DrFidelius]

Not reading through all eleven pages. Just got back from the film.

Damn, that was fun.

I thought that Simon Pegg’s Scotty was a little overdone, but the original series never shied away from having James Doohan be comedy relief. Did he have a tribble in a cage on his desk?

The actor playing Bones was spot-on accurate. Not quite the curmudgeon we all knew. but well on his way.

The action was well laid out and I never was at a loss to know who was where and doing what.

And I am sure that dumping and exploding the warp core must void the warranty.

[carnivorousplant]

@Skald_the_Rhymer

I can think of few episodes of TOS in which “shoot the bastards in scene 1” was the appropriate response, and many in which it would have been the exact wrong thing to do.

Let’s check it out.

@Skald_the_Rhymer

I can think of few episodes of TOS in which “shoot the bastards in scene 1” was the appropriate response, and many in which it would have been the exact wrong thing to do.

Let’s check it out.

(1) The Cage. They ain’t survivors. Shoot them and run like hell.

(2) The Man Trap. Shoot Bone’s main squeeze. He does at the end, anyway.

(3) Charlie X. See how nervous those freighter guys are? They wish they had shot Charlie.

(4) Where No man Has Gone Before. Shoot Gary as soon as his eyes look funny. I forget if Kirk or the Girl With Far Away Eyes drop a bunch of rocks on his head at the end.

(5) The Naked Time. Okay, I admit they should have shot the ship rather than a living thing.

(6) The Enemy Within. You’re right on this one, but only because it takes Spock so long to figure out which Kirk to shoot on stun.

(7) Mudd’s Women. Harry Mudd needs killin’ no matter what.

(8) What Are Little Girls Made of? Shoot the damn robots and save the Red Shirt Guy for once.

(9) Miri. I’d have shot the kids, but that’s just me. You’re right again.

(10)
(11) The menagerie. See No. 1

(12) The Conscience of the King. Someone shoots him anyway.

(13) Balance of Terror. The Romulans all croak at the end anyway. Would have saved that guy on his wedding day.

(14) Shore Leave. You’re right again, although it wouldn’t have mattered.

(15) The Galileo Seven. Yep, shoot the big ape and save the red shirt guy.

(16) The Squire of Gothos. I can’t remember if Trelayne kills anyone or not. A tie, perhaps. MAybe it would have pissed off Mom & Dad.

(17) Arena. You are right again. Gotta look good for androgynous, all powerfull aliens.

(18) Tomorrow is Yesterday. You are correct, but this time MR. Spock wants to.

(19) Court Martial. I won’t argue with you, or Kirk’s lawyer who was in the Maltese Falcon. One must have some taste.

(20) The return of the Archons. They kill Landru at the end, anyway. Another tie, since he was a MAC and the first folks they see are humans. Aw, hell, I’ll give it to you on a technicality.
(21) Space Seed. Kill Kahn and Company. Ruin a fine movie later on, but save an officer this time.

(22)
A Taste of Armageddon. This is another tie. These guys are assholes.

(23) This Side of Paradise. You win this one, hands down.

(24) The Devil in the Dark. A tie. Kill them, save some miners. Let the miners die, profit. One for Republicans or Quark.

(25) Errand of Mercy. You win, the Organians won’t let them do it, anyway.
(26) The Alternative Factor. It’s a tie, unless you can explain it to me. They are locked up together for all eternity and might as well be dead.

(27) The City on the Edge of Forever. She dies anyway. Okay, that’s a smart ass answer, but it’s cool.

(28) Operate Annihilate! They kill it at the end.

[Skald_the_Rhymer]

@carnivorousplant

Let’s check it out.

<snip>

Okay, 3 things. First off, I’m gonna teleport you a carton of cigs and a couple of sixpacks and a hookerbot, because, dude, that was too much damn work for a message board. Anyway, I need to know your preferred brands of cigs & hooch, and which hair color you like your hookerbots to simulate.

In the second place, to the loose extent that I was serious earlier, I meant that it’s rare that shooting the bastards was the best decision based on the information available at the beginning of the episode.

There was a thing thing, but I don’t remember what it was. I was distracted by the holographic hookerbot catalog. There’s like 12 different Shelly Radleys alone!

[carnivorousplant]

@DrFidelius

the original series never shied away from having James Doohan be comedy relief.

All I remember from the series was drinking the alien under the table. The trouble with Tribbles, maybe. He was a clown in The Search for G-d and Star Trek 90210.