Star Wars: The Force Awakens - Seen It (Assume Spoilers Within)

[Mahaloth]

@iLemming

► Given the character Finn was clearly cast (perhaps written) in order to buck up Afro-American males by presenting them with a positive role model to latch on to (all but confirmed by the non sequitur ‘ghetto’ accent Boyega put on for the role), why was said character so irredeemably shallow?

1. Afro-Americans?

2. It’s not clear to me that he was cast for that reason. He was cast because he’s a charming guy and he fit the role. I think it was a great choice.

[Siam_Sam]

Okay, fine. So I didn’t notice her until late. But seriously, I’m not saying she doesn’t deserve to command a high salary. I’m just wondering why they would want to pay a high salary for such a small role when they could have found another actress to do just as well for cheaper. Just a thought.

[iiandyiiii]

@Siam_Sam

Okay, fine. So I didn’t notice her until late. But seriously, I’m not saying she doesn’t deserve to command a high salary. I’m just wondering why they would want to pay a high salary for such a small role when they could have found another actress to do just as well for cheaper. Just a thought.

Because she’s amazing and should be in every movie.

[Mahaloth]

@Siam_Sam

Okay, fine. So I didn’t notice her until late. But seriously, I’m not saying she doesn’t deserve to command a high salary. I’m just wondering why they would want to pay a high salary for such a small role when they could have found another actress to do just as well for cheaper. Just a thought.

I agree, though I doubt she was paid much at all. I would also guess the role was vastly cut down in editing. The whole movie looked like a 3-hour movie edited down heavily.

[iLemming]

@iiandyiiii

I don’t get your criticism of Finn at all. What ghetto accent? Seemed like a typical American accent from this American’s memory. And to me, he had a pretty good arc: going from disillusioned and selfish soldier to selflessly risking himself to help Rey.

What version of the movie did you watch? The ‘Lucas cut’…?! :dubious:

[GuanoLad]

@iLemming

Yes. As sure as I can be from espying an image of Hamill standing on some platform, in front of a green screen, dressed in the exact garb he was in that final shot. What further confirms it in my mind is, the two characters never actually ‘meet’ – standing quite a distance apart in that scene, for an inordinately protracted time. This suggests that an actual tête-à-tête meeting might have run the risk of it looking fake and the game would be up; thus the long distance meeting was opted for.

You’re talking about this picture, which is not from that day, but is a 3D scan, probably for action figure or texturing a 3D model.

Mark Hamill was certainly on that island, and is going back there in January for Episode VIII.

[Siam_Sam]

I’m also wondering about that final piece to the puzzle. It looked to me like they had enough of the puzzle to show the general area where Luke was hanging out. The final piece locked in the exact location, but they didn’t seem to have any clue whatsoever as to even the general area. Even if that info was locked inside R2D2, why did he have to wait until the final piece became available to wake up and give what he had? (I assume the Force nudged him that the final piece had arrived.)

[iLemming]

Besides the ‘reheat’ nature of the overall film, the insulting level of apathy shown towards script and narrative continuity, is what irks me the most:

1. To blow up the 120-km “Death Star” in Star Wars, the rebels needed detailed plans for the base and a full-scale invasion force – as well as the supernatural targeting skills of the most powerful Force-user in the galaxy. To destroy the exponentially larger and better-protected “Starkiller Base” in The Force Awakens, all that was needed was a janitor with no special skills, a few run-of-the-mill handheld explosives, a couple not very difficult X-wing blaster strikes, and some moxie. It also helped that the Millennium Falcon was able to “fly low.”

2. The wily Han Solo loses track of his most prized possession, the Millennium Falcon, for more than a dozen years. He has no idea where it is – in the entire Galaxy. When you lose something in your house, that’s bad; when you lose something on your planet, you kiss it goodbye but pray for a miracle; when you lose something in the entire Galaxy, you just get on with your life. And yet, less than a minute after Rey begins piloting the Millennium Falcon, Han looks out the window of his freighter and says, “Oh, there it is.”

3. Kylo Ren, a powerful Force-user, fights a light saber duel with an ex-janitor who has never held a light saber and yet (a) never uses the Force on his opponent, though doing so would have ended the duel immediately, and (b) barely wins the fight, suggesting that he is simultaneously one of the least strategic wielders of the Force the Dark Side has ever seen and, despite his training, absolutely terrible with a light saber. None of this stops Kylo Ren from designing and building his own, completely impractical cross-barred lightsaber […]

The full list of forty(40)! are listed here: Huffington Post

@GuanoLad

You’re talking about this picture, which is not from that day, but is a 3D scan, probably for action figure or texturing a 3D model.

Mark Hamill was certainly on that island, and is going back there in January for Episode VIII.

Hmmm… Okay. I’m will to accept that (…my only evidence was the picture you’ve cited and the claim that was made when it was posted).

However, is there no imagery of Hamill at the shoot for that scene? So that it could finally be put to rest…

[Miller]

@iLemming

Yes. As sure as I can be from espying an image of Hamill standing on some platform, in front of a green screen, dressed in the exact garb he was in that final shot. What further confirms it in my mind is, the two characters never actually ‘meet’ – standing quite a distance apart in that scene, for an inordinately protracted time. This suggests that an actual tête-à-tête meeting might have run the risk of it looking fake and the game would be up; thus the long distance meeting was opted for.

Further, I doubt they would have bothered flying Hamill to a remote island off Ireland, risked getting him to the top of that perch he’s pictured on, just for that one, dialogue and gesture devoid scene – it just doesn’t follow (…in-keeping with most of the film, it should be said). That, and I’ve read Hamill had to lose a lot of weight to reprise his role (he may still be in the process of this transformation), which could lend even more weight my theory, for perhaps Hamill was not in the right shape for that scene when it was shot.

That’s some pretty shaky reasoning, particularly given an actual news report that says he was filming on Skellig Michael. If they did green screen it, why fly Hamill out to Ireland at all? They don’t call it the Emerald Isle because it has a bunch of really top-rate green screen studios. If they wanted to digitally composite the shot, he’d have stayed in Los Angeles.

Certainly, it’s unlikely that they flew him up there just for that one shot. But just because there’s only one shot in this movie, doesn’t mean that’s all that they filmed. They might have originally planned for more on the island, but trimmed it down to what we saw in the editing room. Or, more likely, knowing that the same location is going to appear in the next film, they got the principle photography done for the next movie while they were there, and shot Hamil’s cameo for this movie at the same time.

Some questions:
► Given the character Finn was clearly cast (perhaps written) in order to buck up Afro-American males by presenting them with a positive role model to latch on to (all but confirmed by the non sequitur ‘ghetto’ accent Boyega put on for the role), why was said character so irredeemably shallow?

So, you can’t imagine why they would cast a black actor in the role, except as a sop to black audiences? And what “ghetto” accent? He spoke standard, American accented English - nothing even remotely close to a “ghetto” accent.

Finn’s only motivation was self-preservation: cowardly to the last – about to walk away from the gang he’d established such a supposed rapport with, even after being entreated to stay by the object of his lechery. Speaking of which, the guy was an utter sleaze! He couldn’t wait to ‘pop the question’ to Rey – sidling it in during a moment of commotion (in the MF) – almost as if he wanted to trick the girl into shacking up with him! But not even licentious lust could override this cad’s cravenly nature; failing to take the lead when confronted by the film’s antagonist and effectively letting Rey take the frontal assault. Only engaging said threat when he was literally forced to… to protect himself.

That’s a… pretty unusual take on the character. You seem to have an astoundingly low - almost Victorian - bar for “lechery,” given the exceedingly tame amount of flirting the character engaged in. And “cowardly” is just bizarre as a criticism. Yeah, there’s the scene in the bar where he’s not interested in what he sees as an unwinnable battle. There’s also the scene where he bucks decades of indoctrination and refuses to slaughter unarmed civilians, or the scene where he single-handedly organizes a prison break, or the scene where he volunteers to be part of commando team attacking an entire militarized planet just to help out his friend.

One of the standard aspects of the Campbellian “Hero’s Journey” is “Refusing the Call,” where the hero, faced with an impossible quest, is initially reluctant to follow it. You see it with Luke, in the first movie, when he argues that his farm duties prevent him from helping Obi-Wan, and again at the end when Han ditches the Rebellion and flies off with his reward. Were these characters cowards, too?

Specifically: How is Finn a the positive role model which he is patently in the film to be, when his character traits consist of cowardice, concupiscence, incompetence and clown-like behaviour? Are these not the stereotypes Afro-American males are trying to escape…?!

None of those are character traits he exhibits at any point in the film. I mean, not even close. “Concupisence?” Really? Because at one point there’s a gag where he asks Rey if she has a boyfriend?

► How are viewers supposed to find a character like Rey engaging when she’s literally never in danger; is a ‘renaissance girl’ / savant; has a wooden in demeanour / disposition; and isn’t particularly aesthetically engaging (poe-faced, curt)? Who thought it a good idea to introduce a female lead into the Star Wars universe and reduce the character to an archetypal ‘Mary Sue’ that only fundamentalist feminist females could possibly find endearing?

I’m a feminist, although I don’t think of myself as a fundamentalist (not even sure what that means, in the context of feminism) and I’m certainly not a female, and I liked her character just fine. To the extent that she’s a “Mary Sue,” she is not any more of one than either Luke or Anakin were in their films. Being “strong in the Force” means that you’re naturally talented at things that normally require a lot of training. That’s a fundamental part of the power fantasy that lies at the heart of this franchise.

► Why was blood introduced into the SW universe with TFA? Was it necessary? Is it consistent with how laser weapons function, in the SW universe and out? Should not certain synonymous tropes be adhered to in order to maintain the ‘feel’ of a brand? Did Abrams go to far with the gaudy smearing of blood down Finn’s Stormtrooper helmet…?

Here’s the arm Obi Wan hacked off that guy in the cantina. And here’s the Wampa from the special edition of Empire.

So, not actually a new element to the series.

► Although J.J.Abrams was obviously employed in order to produce a ‘safe’ re-commissioning of the SW franchise (in light of the Arctic reception the prequel trilogy got), was the trade-off off in using such an infamously derivative director - a film that progresses the story and mythology nowhere - really worth it? That is to say, where do the subsequent two sequels go from here:

• Rey’s training? For what – she’s already Super Mary Sue!
• Finn’s recovery? Who cares – are people really that interested in a shoehorned, bumbling sidekick character with knavish motivations like those I’ve already delineated…? I highly doubt that.
• Kylo’s training? I cannot see that even being entertained, as TFA was as light on exposition, and heavy on explosions, as most Micael Bay films are. I don’t envisage the antagonists’ travails being detailed, even explained in ‘VIII’ and ‘XI’. That’s the stuff of fan fiction.
• Another indefensible Death Star / Starkiller super weapon?.. :rolleyes:

Well, I’ve already seen this one twice, and will probably see it at least once more in the theaters, so… yeah, I’m invested in all that stuff, and can’t wait to see how it plays out.

Sorry it didn’t work for you.

[Knorf]

This being the Internet, here I will share a few things I think about this movie. Sorry it got so stupidly long!

I freakin’ loved it. It restored my love for the franchise. It was everything I had hoped, and very little I had feared. In short, I was most thoroughly entertained. Star Wars is back!

Was it high art? Absolutely not. The original trilogy wasn’t either, nor did it set out to be. The original trilogy is an example of how wonderfully entertaining popular art can be, derivative and recycled as it inevitably is. Part of the failure of the prequels was that Lucas seemed driven to make everything so darned serious. But this isn’t material that you use to make a masterpiece of high art cinema, such as something like Kurosawa’s Ran or Kubrick’s 2001: A Space Odyssey. Or, whatever; choose your own example. Star Wars is populist fiction: when it’s good, it’s among the most entertaining examples of such you can find.

I won’t philosophize for long about the movie’s themes, because they have little depth. They are formed from stalwart, familiar adventure story-telling tropes, just as the original Star Wars trilogy was as well.

I also won’t allow my enthusiasm to be dampened by the numerous plot holes and recycled narrative beats, because the story is executed so deftly—with such honesty and good humor—I could hardly care less that they’re there.

Here’s what I loved:

• Abrams managed to remember that the story has to fundamentally be about people: people you can care about and believe in. That means letting your actors be people. He enabled his talented actors to work their craft. There was real emotion here, not the sterile and unbelievably wooden “acting” Lucas apparently felt satisfied with in the prequels, despite the acting talent he had working for him. The newcomers are all interesting and believable.

• Places in the movie felt real. Real in a way that even indoor scenes in the prequels never felt, because Abrams actually used filming on actual locations again, using actual film, as the original trilogy did. I’m sure there was plenty of green screen, but it and the background CGI were kept relatively in control. Just enough to suggest that the worlds were alien, without having to rub your nose in hordes of squiggly monsters and impossible vistas. An authentic sense of place (alien as it is) is part of what made the original trilogy so great.

• All of the call backs to the original trilogy were respectful, which just enough humor that the movie never got bogged down in them. It might have been a better movie if there had been fewer of these, and fewer recycled plot points, but I forgive all since the overall effect was so satisfying in the end. Nostalgia is best when used lightly (thank you, Italo Calvino,) and it was.

@guestchaz

… Kylo Ren character was an annoying shit though. Not Good At All as the central bad guy for this installment.

I think you have to be, to be seduced by the Dark Side. A stand-up, honorable person with confidence in him or herself isn’t going to see the allure. The emotions that lead to the Dark Side are Hate, Anger, Jealousy, etc. In other words, emo, whiny, annoying shit: people who can’t find strength and meaning inside themselves, and so try to find it through power.

Luke was perilously close to being seduced. Yoda was terribly concerned about it, and rightly so: Luke was easily drawn to anger and resentment for not having more. He lusted for adventure and glory, excitement and recognition. He was prone whining and complaining. He was a fat juicy target for the Dark Side.

Hardly surprising that Kylo Ren is little different. I assume users of the Dark Side of the Force always start out more or less like that.

@RikWriter

I would definitely rate this movie higher than the prequels and about on the same quality level as ROTJ but with better acting.

Same for me. Not as high as the peaks in Star Wars and The Empire Strikes Back, but not out of sight, either.

@N9IWP

What I liked is that it stayed very true to what we love about Star Wars.

Exactly!

What I did not like is that Luke got like 30 seconds of screen time and zero lines.

I thought it was perfect, actually. Luke had the right amount of gravitas, no need to say anything at all.

Han Solo’s death was telegraphed completely…

Yeah, I saw it coming from the moment I knew Kylo Ren was his and Leia’s son.

Who wants to guess that the fulcrum of his (one assumes) ultimate redemption will be through his mom?

I did not like that 2 noobs who never saw a lightsaber, one of whom can’t use the force and one who just started using it that afternoon, were able to hold their own in a duel against the big baddie. Kylo Ren must be incredibly weak to not have made quick work of Finn, I don’t care if he was injured.

He was injured, and still conflicted about the Light, and I don’t think murdering his dad is going to work as well for him as he thought it would. Oh, and his injury was from Chewbacca’s weapon, which, as someone upthread memorably put it, knocks squads of stormtroopers around like it was a grenade launcher.

And Rey holds a lightsaber for the first time ever and is not only competent but able to fend off a guy who’s probably trained with the weapon his entire life?

Rey used it a bit earlier against his former colleagues. Let’s assume stormtrooper training includes swinging sword-like weapons around. Also, I think Rey has some Force in him. Note that he didn’t fend off Ben Solo for long, anyway.

@Max_Torque

I don’t think that Rey will turn out to be Luke’s daughter, because that would mean that Luke abandoned her on Jakku, and I don’t see that happening.

I was initially on the side that Rey is Luke’s progeny, but I think you’re right. There’s probably some connection, but we don’t know what it is.

I’m actually glad we have a lot of questions! Just as we did after ESB, incidentally. I look forward to the answers.

Poe Dameron was a bit too much of a “I’m awesome, and everything always turns out just fine for me” character. Everyone should have the possibility of being damaged.

My guess is we’ll see some of that next movie.

@The_Other_Waldo_Pepper

Do you doubt that Finn is related to Lando?

By all that is dark matter, I hope not.

@Jragon

Again, I’m not sure you want to go down the road of criticizing this movie for being formulaic

No kidding. The difference is, people are really familiar with Star Wars, and much, much less familiar with the things Stars Wars itself ripped off.

Abrams hung a nice lampshade often enough of the recycled points, in the end I still really enjoyed them.

@smiling_bandit

The moments I really liked in this film were those quiet, tense scenes where Rey looked up at the sky and wondered, or when Finn walked a lonely path in a borrowed jacket, or when Han looked soulfully into Leia’s eyes and they talked about something so painful it drove a wedge they couldn’t get around.

I agree. I suspect we’ll see more emotional moments like this in the next movie, as we did in ESB after Star Wars.

(2) Rey deserves a much better movie, or at least a more interesting role in it. I don’t really want to go into this but… well… she becomes uninteresting in precise proportion to the amazing superpowers she suddenly gains. Which means she does from an interesting character dragged into an amazing adventure into a walking plot vortex.

She actually showed considerable confidence and competence when we first meet her. I actually enjoyed that: she can be a hero in her own right, and not just someone there to help a male character be the uber hero. I suspect her training will be a lot less angsty than either Luke’s or Anakin’s, but she is going to be as all Jedi are supposed to be: ludicrously competent and tough. But I suspect there will be some backstory that will help flesh her out further and bring some shade to matters. What with her lurid flashback and all, when she touched Anakin’s light saber.

[Miller]

@Siam_Sam

Okay, fine. So I didn’t notice her until late. But seriously, I’m not saying she doesn’t deserve to command a high salary. I’m just wondering why they would want to pay a high salary for such a small role when they could have found another actress to do just as well for cheaper. Just a thought.

Do you have a cite that she got paid a whole lot? I mean, more power to her if she did, but considering it was just voice work, I’d be surprised if she got much more than low-to-mid-six figures. Still a nice check, but not that big by Hollywood standards.

[Miller]

@iLemming

The full list of forty(40)! are listed here: Huffington Post

I saw that earlier today. There’s maybe five or ten good criticisms in there. Most of the rest are irrelevant nitpicks, or the author just not paying attention to the movie. How Han found the Falcon, for example, is explicitly described in the movie’s dialogue, and is an important plot point to explain why they end up in Maz’s bar.

However, is there no imagery of Hamill at the shoot for that scene? So that it could finally be put to rest…

How about Hamill talking about how he felt filming on Skellig Michael?

[Miller]

@Knorf

Rey used it a bit earlier against his former colleagues. Let’s assume stormtrooper training includes swinging sword-like weapons around. Also, I think Rey has some Force in him. Note that he didn’t fend off Ben Solo for long, anyway.

Finn is the former Stormtrooper who used the lightsaber to kill a couple of his ex-compatriots. Rey is the girl from the desert planet who actually has Force abilities.

[Pleonast]

Blood was put on Finn’s helmet for the simple reason of making him distinguishable from all the other troopers. So the audience could follow him and know he’s worth following.

[Sitnam]

When Ben Solo took off his mask I thought, “Whoa! Vinnie Barbarino went to the dark side!”.

I couldn’t have been the only one.

[Miller]

Hey, Mistah Skywalkah!

[Knorf]

@Miller

Finn is the former Stormtrooper who used the lightsaber to kill a couple of his ex-compatriots. Rey is the girl from the desert planet who actually has Force abilities.

Yeah, oops. My mistake.

Rey was using her staff very competently earlier on. Plus, you know, the Force. I can believe it.

I think a non-injured, non-“I just murdered my father” Kylo would have wiped the floor with her. Also, he was obviously a bit afraid of her.

[Northern_Piper]

@gonzoron

(BTW, it’s not clear to me if the Knights of Ren are named after Kylo, or if he is just one of many ___ Rens that make up the Knights.)

I’m really hoping they turn out to be a new incarnation of the Knights Who Say Ni.

[MaxTheVool]

I’ve seen it twice. On my first viewing, I also felt like Kylo Ren should have done way better against Finn and Rey.

On a second viewing, and after reading some on the dope, the facts that:
(a) he was badly injured
(b) Finn presumably had melee weapons training (assuming he had the same training as the other storm trooper, who fought him with the energy stick thing)
© Rey definitely had melee weapons experience, and of course had some Force Awakening action going on

all combined, made me pretty much OK with how it played out. And of course, he did beat Finn pretty badly.

[Miller]

Incidentally, props for justifying those little hilt blades on Ren’s lightsaber. That particular aspect of his character design got a little mocking when the first images from the movie were released, and I was pleased to see that they actually made some sense.