Star Wars: The Last Jedi - seen it thread

I’ve been thinking about this a bit since I saw it on Friday, and I’ve come to the conclusion that things won’t wrap up by the end of the next movie. We’re so used to having Star Wars tell a story arc that has a set conclusion. But I’ll bet that way of doing things is done. I think with IX, they’ll be setting things up for many more movies and TV shows and comics for years to come; Rey won’t “win,” Kylo won’t “change,” there’ll be a showdown of some sort that will still allow them to continue on doing what they do. I think this trilogy will come to be seen as Kylo Ren’s rise to power as the Supreme Leader similar to how the prequels showed Palpatine’s rise to power. There’s tons of possibilities in a universe (galaxy, rather) where Kylo Ren is Supreme Leader, Rey is leading a band of force users-- him bad, her good, with shades of grey between them-- Poe is fighting/leading in the Resistance, Finn continues to grow as a person, etc.

Disney/Marvel is currently printing money with Marvel characters having their own movies and TV shows, that just keep going on and on with different heroes and baddies. Oh, sure, sometimes the Avengers come together for an epic battle, but there’s a lot of other good stuff happening with Dr. Strange, Jessica Jones, Ant Man, Star Lord, etc in between. I think they might go that route with Star Wars.

You could have movies and shows set on random planets within the Star Wars galaxy, with new characters, but with a constant presence of the First Order and casual mentions of Supreme Leader Ren here and there; the First Order and Resistance wouldn’t necessarily be the focus advancing some epic story like everything seems to do now. For instance, you could have an animated series set on that casino planet, focused on organized crime there, with crime families battling for control of things, and with that slave boy finding his place as a force user among the gangs and wealth and the violence and whatnot. No Ren, no Rey, no Finn, just blood money flowing in and criminals duking it out for power. And a kid who is strong with the Force but doesn’t know what to do with it.

If all that makes sense. Basically, I don’t think there will be any redemption of Kylo Ren or fall of the First Order like we saw at the conclusion of the OT. Just a segue into a universe of new movies and shows that has people living and fighting in a galaxy where Kylo Ren is the evil leader and Force users exist here and there and the Jedi and Sith are seen as some mysterious religions of the past. I think this could be a very good thing. Sure, you’ll get some duds, but with enough shows and movies coming out, we could get a lot of interesting new stuff out of the Star Wars brand.

I think the Last Jedi was trying to deliberately subvert tropes and plotlines from the original trilogy but the problem is they didn’t think through why those tropes exist in the first place and didn’t create viable alternatives.

E.g. killing Snoke. Conventionally the most powerful villain is killed at the climax like in ROTJ. They decided to surprise audiences and kill him in the middle. Fine but the problem is that Kylo remains a complete wimp and fails as the main antagonist. In the last film he was beaten by Rey: a complete Jedi novice. In this film, he appeared to lose to her again in the light-saber faceoff. He was easily fooled by Luke’s hologram trick, which he should have seen through both through his Jedi powers and common sense (Jedi are powerful but nothing so far indicates they are completely impervious to massive laser blasts).If they wanted to kill Snoke they should have made Kylo a much more formidable antagonist.

The second trope they subverted was Jedi training but again it existed for a reason. In ESB, training set up constraints and choices which is the heart of good storytelling. Luke has to choose between finishing his training and saving his friends. He decides to fight Vader and pays the logical price. In these films, Rey has apparently become a full-fledged Jedi without any training and beat Kylo before she barely knew how to handle a light-saber. Apparently she doesn’t need training; she can just read some books.

He needs to be vulnerable. He can’t be all-powerful if he is going to be defeated. He has to turn or fail. If the story requires he is beaten, he must be fallible.

Neither Rey nor Kylo are anywhere near as good as the Jedi we saw in the prequels. They can manage to tap into the Force in clever ways, they know some tricks, but they aren’t skilled fighters. Competent, yes, but that’s because they have some small anticipatory cognitive powers through the Force, not because they’re good at fighting.

I would put Rey as an equal to Luke at the end of ESB. He trained between episodes and again afterward. But all he needed to do to defeat Vader was convince him to turn. And that’s all Rey needs to defeat Kylo.

I think there will be a big time jump before Episode IX, maybe as much as ten years, where Rey and Kylo will have refined their skills.

Having said that, I agree it’s not great that they have taken shortcuts for the sake of storytelling expediency and a coolness factor. But that’s okay, it’s only a movie.

You should try browsing Wookiepedia some time. It’ll draw you into a black hole of reading about lazy, cliched, terrible writing.

Not sure I can see Luke simultaneously levitating that many big rocks in ESB.

Except the red arm was off C3PO in the final scene of The Force Awakens.

Kylo Ren is by far the most interesting Star Wars villain of any of the films, IMO. All his weaknesses and insecurities just add to that, and transfix me every time he’s on screen. A testament to Driver, for certain, but also the writers and directors who’ve put the character in that position.

Because the whole setup of this movie is that Rey and Kylo Ren are NOT Jedi and Sith. They are going to become something beyond what the Jedi and Sith were. Probably something along the lines of the Grey Jedi idea that popped up in the EU. A Force User who can harness both the dark and the light. That is why Kylo’s feelings for Rey were able to overpower Snoke’s senses and why Rey is able to utilize her fears about her family and anger at the actions of Kylo and the First Order to fight better than she should (although she already has a lifetime of melee combat training on Jakku to draw on).

The Jedi died with Luke and the Sith died with Snoke.

Well, that and the novelisations of the episodes, the original novels, comic books, action figures, play sets, plastic model kits, the Starfleet Technical Manual, Starfleet Medical Reference Manual, and blueprints of the ships. Oh, and the fanfics, of course.

Not that I think you’re wrong in your overall assessment, but Trek fandom has it just as bad, and probably had it earlier.

I got really mixed feelings about this one. There were a lot of things that made med go Magnificent! or that I just liked a lot, but there were probably more that was just poor.

It is pretty clear that they are removing the old generation, so they can go forwards with new characters into a long, profitable franchise. And conceptually, bringing a new generation onstage and retiring the old is not a bad choice. However, the concept being strong does not mean that the executions was. The old guard here are so archetypically powerful, and so deeply embedded in pop culture that you can take the word “pop” out of the sentence. There are quotes associated with them that pretty much everyone in the developed world knows. Whereas the characters replacing them range from poor to pathetic, with the exception of Finn.

It wasn’t going to go over well with any fandom.

Instead of Vader, we got the pathetic Kylo Ren a desperate wannabe continuously failing to get that level in badass he wants so badly. Instead of Tarkin, we get Hux, who veers between maniacal parody villain and comic relief. We get the silly name Snoke, in one of the leftover Voldemort masks to replace the Emperor. In the defense of at least one of these characters it could be said that Kylo Ren is a well realized and well acted character, he is just a tremendous failure as a main villain.

On the good guys side, we got Rey, an annoying authors pet character where they seem to be trying to justify the replacement by making a point of how much better she is than Luke at everything. Poe Dameron who until this movie was just a pretty face, and the actually interesting Finn.

The movie itself still suffers from coming over a bit as a remake, and that spoils some of the twists. “Oh, the Cloud City bit. Well, he is going to betray them.” “Oh, the elevator scene from RotJ. So he’ll kill the emperor understudy after protesting and being impassive for a bit” On the good side it is far more original than the previous movie, where I am hard pressed to remember a single original bit. The movie intro does not make much sense though. So the First Order, after spending the resources to build a planet-sized superweapon and getting that blown up (like always) also had the personnel and resources to build the fleets to take out the rest of the Republic, winning all the battles and steamrollering the resistance ? If they had that kind of resources, financing, industry and manpower, why was there a contest at all? And they did it in the time between the last movie and this one which is basically no time at all? This really blows my suspension of disbelief right out of the water. An intro that just said “We want the setup of The Empire Strikes Back, ok” would have been more honest and less insulting.

The Battle of Hoth-remake starts of strong though, and gets better. The visuals are really good and this is where Poe Dameron starts his magnificent character journey. At the end of the last movie, the Republic and the resistance was the dominant military force in the galaxy, and at the end of this one they are few enough left to fit on the Millennium Falcon. And its all due to Poe Damerons fuckups! Darth Vader would have hissed an awe and taken the day off, because here is a man who can crush a rebellion utterly! Dameron is the sort of overly handsome jock who would torment Star Wars fans in High School and is mysteriously supposed to become someone to cheer for if you put “Fighter jock” in front of his name. His string of screw-ups disobeying orders, not trusting his superiors and outright mutiny completely wreck the resistance. This is some of the most magnificent subverting of expectations I’ve seen in my life! It also justifies him as a character! Also, props to the Vice-Admiral for pointing out that the kind of reflexes that make you an ace fighter pilot does not lead to a personality that stops to think things through. Also, well explained why there is a chase.

Flight of the Leia came out of nowhere. I’d have preferred it if there had been a line about Leia learning basic force use from Luke previously, or if there was force-ghost aid. As a first demonstration of active force use it felt a bit over the top.

The whole sidequest to the new wretched hive seems a bit pointless, but I guess you got to have the Cloud City scene. Cameo was touching. The ability to pop in and out of the chase was a bit weird though. New character Rose Tico was ok. I kind of feel that she is competing with Finn for the “everyman” territory though.

The kamikaze run really should have been Leias Badass Death Scene. If you needed a force-sensitive to make a jump that short-distance accurate it would explain why the rest of the movies won’t be just hyperspace torpedoes. Since we are borrowing liberally from the pervious movies, it could have been a “Use the force, Luke” moment with Anakins force ghost. Father and daughter bonding at last over using the Force to exterminate vast numbers of annoying opponents. I suppose they had already filmed the ground scenes with her in. Phasma was supposed to be the new breakout character like Boba Fett, so I guess she had to go in a similar way. I think she was just one more superficial villain. Although it is a strange criticism when comparing someone to Boba Fett in the original movies.

I suppose the problem is the trend of replacing the original trilogy’s cool, competent villains with a new generation who is anything but.

Rey continues her mission of being better than Luke Skywalker at everything. Less affected by the dark side location, unaffected by the cave test, beating him in combat, lifting the rocks where Luke failed to lift the X-Wing. Oh, and Yoda says she is wiser than Luke and he clearly likes her better. Not that the last is out of character, he has never had much time for any Skywalker and they have proven him right. I felt she would have redeemed her character a lot of she had just gone dark side with Kylo Ren. As a villain her over-the-top-authors-pet would have been tempered by a flaw, and villains are supposed to be powerful. Also, this trilogy needs a competent villain oh so badly.

The Snoke kill was just Ed Wood level bad. Ripped off from RotJ, and without the least explanation of who Snoke were or how he broke the rule of two after two years of frantic fan speculation? No. All we get is that he had Darth Plagueis theme music and wore a piece of Vaders castle. On the good side we do get to see why the Sith have the rule of two. The reveal of Reys parentage is really, really good though. Enjoyed that, Jedi and Sith don’t need a special bloodline. Should maybe have been a flashback, would have made it harder to retcon.

The final battle and Lukes fake out was magnificent, though. Absolutely brilliant. I didn’t catch the tracks in the salt clue, but I did notice the appearance revert to how Kylo Ren last saw him clue.

Maybe I am misremembering but my impression at the end was Rey has decided to be a Jedi but also decided she can determine what exactly that means

Yeah, I’m counting 22 books before 1977. That’s in 11 years. Star Wars didn’t reach 22 books until 1994, or 17 years. There were only 10 Star Wars books up until 1991, including novelizations of the movies. (The only ones I remember reading other than the novelizations are Splinter of the Mind’s Eye and Han Solo at Star’s End. The only post-1991 books I’ve read are the original Timothy Zahn trilogy.)

This is brilliant. Love everything about this.

She beat a severely injured Kylo, who had been gut shot by Chewwies bow caster (previously shown to be as powerful as a grenade launcher basically) and injured by Finn (storm troopers had also been shown to receive at least basic sword fighting training specifically in case they had to fight force users you would assume). Kylo could barely stand before he even started fighting either of them.

Agree to disagree. Yes his character is somewhat compelling, but he is just a blunt whiny instrument and should not be in any sort of leadership position. I liked him better after he smashed the helmet at least.

First of all, The Force Awakens was horrible. Some chippie with no knowledge or training in the Force is supergirl and can fly a spaceship although she’s never flown, Jedi Voice a stormtrooper and hold her own in a lightsaber battle against a trained Dark Jedi/Sith*. And no one really has explanation other than “You know, the Force.”

So here is Rey the most powerful Force user ever, Kylo Douche, janitor-turned-soldier, and Poe “Whereas Han was a lovable scamp I’m just a dick” Dameron. Rian Johnson did the best he could with the crap he had to work from given Episode VII.

*Which is apparently isn’t difficult as Finn was able to do it even though the hardest battle he’d ever been in was plunging out Phasma’s toilet.

Comparisons of Luke to Rey before any training aren’t really valid. Luke’s baseline was a farmer who fixed droids, checked evaporators and went shopping for power converters. Rey had a life of scaling imperial starships, fighting, and surviving on her own in a difficult world. Luke needed a lot of training just to get to Rey’s starting point.

As for Rey figuring out how to use to Force earlier than Luke, so what? Is it impossible that the Force is stronger in her?

Not just that, but Rey grew up in a world were force users were known. To Luke it was just magic, most of his training at first was simply getting him to BELIEVE that such a thing as lifting a ship out of a swamp was even possible.

Or different. The Force can affect people in different ways.

Haven’t seen it, will wait for Bluray. But: Luke is the main character in Star Wars, he practically is Star Wars and his continuing story the epic one fans want to see. So why did they kill him off? Makes no sense to me. OK, Han dies in TFA; in part 2 they should have killed off Leia (as obviously the actress is dead in real life) only then kill off Luke in Part 3 so the transformation to the new guard is complete. Why do it in part 2? Basic storytelling people.