Star Wars VII, VIII, IX possibly to be retconned away {Warning Spoilers for other Star Wars movies}

[HMS_Irruncible]

@UltraVires

Well, my main objection of the prequel trilogy was the blurring of good and evil, mostly in the third installment. The Jedi were not all good. The Sith were not all evil in all cases, just sometimes pushing back against the arbitrary Jedi rule. If the Iraq War played a part in that, even subconsciously, then Lucas let a temporary political event ruin a story which should stand permanently.

What is a “temporary political event?” The term doesn’t even make sense. All events are temporary, yet the US was in Iraq for nearly a generation!

Nevertheless, it is indeed a timeless theme in both history and fiction for leaders to lie about war as a distraction. Lucas may have been reminded of it by Iraq, but he also cited the parallel to Vietnam as well. It’s a thing that keeps happening, so it would be dumb to say we can’t make a movie about it because it’s too recent.

I mean, did Shakespeare ruin Richard the 3rd by making it about politics? It’s to laugh.

[HMS_Irruncible]

@Omniscient

Lucas wants to sound socially conscious and like he’s got something profound to say in his films, whether that fits with reality doesn’t really matter.

It’s pretty indisputable Lucas had George W. Bush and Iraq on his mind for Revenge of the Sith. There’s nothing wrong with that, either, except that none of the prequel trilogies were good enough to give the subject an appropriate treatment.

[FlikTheBlue]

@RickJay

It was better than Star Wars?

It was basically a reboot of Star Wars.

VII suffers from not establishing the three main characters as a group. There was very little of Poe. Finn and Rey didn’t really mesh together. Those things make it worse than ANH. Other than that, however, being a reboot of ANH is what made it better than the prequels and the other two sequels. There was potential there, it just wasn’t realized. I’d be all for retconning away VIII and IX while keeping VII.

[Elmer_J.Fudd]

Retcon everything after the summer of 1977. Luke marries Leah and becomes a Prince and Darth Vader (who was too evil to ever have any children) spends eternity spiraling through space in a disabled Tie Fighter.

[Omniscient]

@HMS_Irruncible

It’s pretty indisputable Lucas had George W. Bush and Iraq on his mind for Revenge of the Sith .

How so? Any comparisons are a stretch. Or was there an Order 66 I missed in Iraq?

Or does “on his mind” simply mean that he watched the news like almost everyone else?

[Mahaloth]

@RickJay

It was better than Star Wars?

Yes, but I could also see it the other way.

[UltraVires]

@HMS_Irruncible

What is a “temporary political event?” The term doesn’t even make sense. All events are temporary, yet the US was in Iraq for nearly a generation!

Nevertheless, it is indeed a timeless theme in both history and fiction for leaders to lie about war as a distraction. Lucas may have been reminded of it by Iraq, but he also cited the parallel to Vietnam as well. It’s a thing that keeps happening, so it would be dumb to say we can’t make a movie about it because it’s too recent.

I wish I hadn’t brought it up because I don’t want to inject politics in this thread. My objection is that a movie franchise like this should be nearly timeless, with film students commenting on it one hundred or two hundred years from now. To inject a contemporary issue into a film necessarily dates it, no less than if the OT contained a message about Jimmy Carter’s energy policies or the Watergate scandal.

[Zakalwe]

@UltraVires

To inject a contemporary issue into a film necessarily dates it, no less than if the OT contained a message about Jimmy Carter’s energy policies or the Watergate scandal

But, as noted above, “leader lies his way into war as distraction/way to take or keep power/unifying event/etc.” is nearly timeless in the sense that it happens over and over and over again. Lucas may have been thinking about Bush, but the premise is universal.

[Mijin]

@ZosterSandstorm

Marvel-type movies where safe and predictable mediocrity is the strategy.

Agreed with much of your analysis, but what do you mean by this? Marvel has taken plenty of risks: Deadpool, venom, Ragnarok, maybe guardians of the Galaxy, infinity war were all not playing it safe, and they’re some of the best movies as a result.

Conversely…

@FlikTheBlue

being a reboot of ANH is what made it better than the prequels and the other two sequels

Great so let’s do that forever. If all we need to do to make a good film is just copy a great one, why stop at 3 death stars?

Personally I enjoyed the start of VII; a stormtrooper with remorse. A sith with powers strong enough to stop blaster fire. It’s fresh. And Rey’s world, even if it’s another desert was well fleshed out.
Then it became entirely derivative, and when they showed the extra big death star (that, like, can destroy 5 planets at once!) I had my head in my hands.

[Biffster]

@Mahaloth

@FlikTheBlue

V,IV,Mandalorian,VI…VII,III,II…I…IX,VIII

I would go like this and will also use multiple dots to indicate the big gaps.

VI, V, VII, Mandalorian, IV…III, VIII, II…, IX, I

I loved the Force Awakens and still can love it even knowing the two sequels were disappointing. It was better than IV and basically an equal to the original movies. Crying shame they blew it.

Mandalorian is also up there.

So where do you think Rogue One fits?

[Smapti]

@UltraVires

My objection is that a movie franchise like this should be nearly timeless, with film students commenting on it one hundred or two hundred years from now. To inject a contemporary issue into a film necessarily dates it, no less than if the OT contained a message about Jimmy Carter’s energy policies or the Watergate scandal.

The Empire are basically a sci-fi stand-in for the Third Reich, so that train left the station half a century ago.

[Alessan]

@Omniscient

How so? Any comparisons are a stretch. Or was there an Order 66 I missed in Iraq?

Or does “on his mind” simply mean that he watched the news like almost everyone else?

A couple of key quotes from Episode 3:

“This is how democracy ends - with thunderous applause”; it wouldn’t be hard to see this as a reference to the bipartisan support for the Patriot Act and the Iraq War.

“If you’re not with me, you’re my enemy” - a clear reference to GWB’s “You’re either with us, or against us”.

Both seemed pretty obvious when I first saw the film in the theater - in fact, I actually rolled my eyes at the lack of subtlety.

[HMS_Irruncible]

@UltraVires

My objection is that a movie franchise like this should be nearly timeless, with film students commenting on it one hundred or two hundred years from now. To inject a contemporary issue into a film necessarily dates it, no less than if the OT contained a message about Jimmy Carter’s energy policies or the Watergate scandal.

Well yeah, and Shakespeare dated his plays by mentioning Julius Caesar or Richard the 3rd. There doesn’t seem to be much of an issue with those.

[HMS_Irruncible]

@Alessan

A couple of key quotes from Episode 3:

“This is how democracy ends - with thunderous applause” ; it wouldn’t be hard to see this as a reference to the bipartisan support for the Patriot Act and the Iraq War.

“If you’re not with me, you’re my enemy” - a clear reference to GWB’s “You’re either with us, or against us”.

Both seemed pretty obvious when I first saw the film in the theater - in fact, I actually rolled my eyes at the lack of subtlety.

This, plus the fact that Lucas stated he had both Iraq and Vietnam in mind.

When I saw ROTS, I didn’t even know that information, and I found it blatantly obvious Lucas was throwing some shade at GWB:

“You’re either for us or against us” (GWB, this statement of his was extremely controversial at the time).

“If you are not with me then you are my enemy” (Anakin, a hamfisted restatement of the same)

“Only a Sith deals in absolutes” (Kenobi, the Greek Chorus rendering judgment).

[FlikTheBlue]

@Mijin

Great so let’s do that forever. If all we need to do to make a good film is just copy a great one, why stop at 3 death stars?

Personally I enjoyed the start of VII; a stormtrooper with remorse. A sith with powers strong enough to stop blaster fire. It’s fresh. And Rey’s world, even if it’s another desert was well fleshed out.
Then it became entirely derivative, and when they showed the extra big death star (that, like, can destroy 5 planets at once!) I had my head in my hands.

It’s not the details that need to be rehashed. What needs to be kept is the overall idea of these are the good guys, those are the bad guys, and now the good guys are going to have a great adventure together to defeat the bad guys. The details didn’t need to be rehashed, I agree with that. We didn’t need a 3rd deathstar, or to bring Palpatine back. We definitely didn’t need that. But bringing back the same overall theme and feel of the OT? That would have been great to see.

Instead, we mostly got a completely different style. This was most obvious with Luke’s portrayal in VIII. Making Luke a bitter old man who has rejected the Jedi sucked. Sure, that was new, and risk taking, and going a different way, and all that, but it sucked and ruined VIII and IX. No, Obi Wan and Yoda from the OT were not at all comparable. They didn’t tell Young Luke to give up, it’s not worth it, just go home and let Palpatine win. What’s this, a magical laser sword? Let’s throw it away! Not a good way to go. Mark Hamill himself eventually came around, likely to avoid pissing off the powers that be, but initially even he said that the way they portrayed Luke in VIII was pretty shitty.

Here’s another example. Exploring Rose’s PTSD as a possible option was also mentioned above. We didn’t need that. What we also didn’t need was exploring Kylo Ren’s PTSD. In the OT, Vader was a badass who was supremely confident and didn’t take shit from anybody until we got to the end of RotJ. That’s the type of villain that Star Wars should have, not someone struggling with the ghost of said grandfather.

Regarding the heroes, I’ve mentioned the key issue above. Star Wars OT was about a band of heroes taking on the villains together. In the sequels we got three different heroes, each doing their own thing their own way. Sure that’s new and different, but it just didn’t feel like Star Wars.

[Chronos]

Actually, I thought that the characterization of Kylo Ren in VII was perfect. Darth Vader was the greatest villain in cinematic history. How do you follow that up, without making the new guy look like a wannabe? Answer: You don’t. You make the new guy recognize that Vader was the greatest villain, to whom he can never measure up. If he’s going to be a wannabe, then lean into that.

[The_Other_Waldo_Pepper]

@HMS_Irruncible

“If you are not with me then you are my enemy” (Anakin, a hamfisted restatement of the same)

“Only a Sith deals in absolutes” (Kenobi, the

…guy dealing in absolutes.)

[Lantern2]

Yeah I think Kylo Ren was the best thing about sequels though my first reaction to his character was negative. He may well be the most memorable Star Wars movie character since the original trilogy.

Overall though I was pretty meh about the sequels. I enjoyed them in the moment but have no desire to re-watch them and wouldn’t mind at all if they were retconned.

My personal rule for Star Wars seems to be that the closer it is in time to the OT the more I like it. Among the prequels I liked ROTS. Rogue One is easily my favorite Star Wars film since the ESB. I liked Solo. And I am really enjoying the Mandalorian.

There are a lot of potential films between ROTS and ANH on the one hand and after ROTJ on the other. The rise of Darth Vader could easily be a trilogy in itself.

And what about the Thrawn trilogy? Haven’t read them but have heard good things. That could be a potential movie series if they are willing to recton 7-9.

[silenus]

There are at least 5 Thrawn books by now. With a little tweaking and hand-waving, you could probably fit the first three in between VI and VII.

[FlikTheBlue]

During the time of The Mandalorian? I’m guessing they wouldn’t fit between VI and The Mandalorian, so it would have to be in between The Mandalorian and VII. That’s a tight window, and tightening further with each additional season of The Mandalorian, The Book of Boba Fett, and the other Mandalorian spinoffs.