There’s the backasswards “draft” of stop-loss orders. Some military advocacy groups have taken to calling these stop-loss oirders the equivalent of a draft.
Do you have a cite for this? I’ve seen him trotted out by the cable news guys to talk about this since the Iraq War started, but never before. By “this issue”, I assume you mean initiating a draft, not just making noise about the racial/ethnic make-up of the enlisted military.
Quote:
“There’s the backasswards “draft” of stop-loss orders. Some military advocacy groups have taken to calling these stop-loss orders the equivalent of a draft.”
As happy as I am knowing my sons will most likely not be drafted, I am not happy knowing that those who have served willingly are told they must stay after their time in the service has supposed to have ended.
This is a “draft” ploy of the worst sort. Sure, the majority of American moms & dads need not worry about their sons having to join the service against their will, but what about those moms who were expecting Jr. to be home next month but now who knows when he is coming home?
Exactly how many countries do we need to have troops deployed in before we can declare it a “world war”? 
As I type this, according to Yahoo, American Marines are duking it out with Iraqis, Syrian mercenaries, Saudi fanatics, and the odd Iranian.
It ain’t World War III. But it’s certainly more entitled to the title of “Gulf War” than our previous escapade in the region. This time, we’re shooting LOTS of different nationalities. And they are doing their damndest to shoot us.
I was against the war. Still am. I thought it was a potential quagmire of the worst sort, something we haven’t seen since Vietnam. How the hell do we get out of this one without looking like we’re turning tail and running? Near as I can tell, we don’t. Meanwhile, Iraqis and their irritated neighbors are getting shot in droves, except when we nail entire mosquefuls of them.
No, I’m not bitching. If the people in the mosque were shooting out, then we had a perfect right to shoot back in. But the locals don’t seem to see it that way, and we’re certainly not winning any hearts and minds this way.
Whatthehell were we there for again? What was the White House Press Secretary’s “operative statement” for today? I forget…
I think the word “mirage” best fits the Iraq situation.
Our own prejudices and limitations place details in the faroff image that aren’t necessarily factual. Each time we approach, the image changes, disappears or stays on the horizon.
Some believed there were WMD, then thought a very bloody battle for Bagdad would occur, then we chased the 54 most wanted, thinking that would end things. And so forth.
With each passing week or month, the official view of what the problems are changes.
I just volunteered to serve on my local Selective Service Board.
I don’t think there will be a draft short of a world war, and I certainly don’t wish for one.
I doubt there will be a draft in the immediate future as long as Iraq is our only real target. However, if the theater expands, then all bets are off. I read the other day that we were conducting some fairly serious war games in South Korea recently. If we go after North Korea, which I think has a 1.1 million man army ready to go, then we will need a lot of warm bodies quickly. In reading the reference below, I was surprised to learn that men 18-25 are still required to register for military service. Also, woman ARE NOT required to register! So the mechanism for calling up draftee’s is already in place and should a draft become necessary, it could be implemented fairly quickly. Of course, there would still be the issue of adequately training the conscripted people.
btw: It seems like there is a system already in place to draft doctors and nurses between 20-45 years old if necessary.
Found this interesting story also:
http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article5146.htm
Oh, so it can be like MAS*H all over again, cool.
/dreading our future
Yup, war looked to be pretty fun back then. :rolleyes: Wonder if those docs now in Iraq will get their own TV show down the line?
If they start the draft again and do not draft women, then I hope that you young men scream like bloody murder about the discrimination.
(Another good reason for supporting an Equal Rights Amendment)
Since my young adulthood was spent during a time when the draft was ordinary, it is not so unthinkable to me. There would still be ways to avoid the draft, but you would have to be willing to face the consequences of making that choice.
Like not being able to become Presid- er, wait, nevermind… O_o
This talk of a draft is nonsense. The only people pushing a draft are those, like Rangel, who hope that a draft would make it much more difficult to authorize use of military force. Rangel doesn’t want a draft to increase the capabilities of the armed forces, he wants a draft so that any time we used the armed forces we’d have legions of protestors.
The truth is, this talk of a draft is just another example of political pornography, like the talk of Bush cancelling the election, or the “Clinton Body Count”, or the Mena airport. The people who spread it are people who WISH it were true, because then it would demonstrate to the American people just how awful the president is.
Currently we have troops stationed all over the world. Wouldn’t it make more sense to, say, pull troops out of Germany and send them to Iraq rather than reinstitute the draft?
The truth is that you people secretly HOPE for a draft, because you know how unpopular a draft would be, and that would doom Bush. But Bush knows how unpopular a draft would be, and therefore won’t institute one.
And the fact is, disregarding the political problems, reinstituting a draft would not increase military readiness levels, rather the reverse. We don’t need to send half-trained resentful conscripts to Iraq. That would be worse than useless. The draft would destroy our military. There will be no draft.
Who are these people to whom you are referring? I have two young sons that I pray will never have any sort of fight, much less a war to participate in. I have no love for GWB but it is insane to put forward the idea that I would hope to have my sons drafted just to make Bush look bad.
I hope you will offer a retraction.
I dunno, maybe by, “you people” he means blacks? That works in historical context. shrugs
In any case, I thought I would add a resource to this thread for archival purposes.
While I in no way endorse the neutrality of this site, and it is, obviously, biased against Bush, it does have a number of links to articles from the BBC and other resourses, as well as bills introduced to the House and Senate, in the “Proof” section regarding contemplation of a draft.
I don’t think the case the site makes is solid, but it (more specifically, the linked articles) may be an interesting read to those interested. Most of them are wild speculation, based largely on the Selective Service kicking into a recruitment drive and asking for volunteers for draft boards, which are mostly empty at this time. Whether or not that implies that they are getting ready for a draft or not is up to the reader.
Could you please explain why you thought I might be refering to blacks? What historical context are you refering to? Are you accusing me of racism? Where did racism come in? If you wish to accuse me of racism, please explain why you believe I am a racist and provide evidence, or shut your mouth. Can someone disagree with you in good faith? Or must everyone who disagrees with you have some sort of secret agenda, like racism?
“You people” clearly meant the people who are spreading draft scare stories. And yes, there have been bills introduced in the house about restarting the draft. Please check on the sponsors of those bills. Do your research. Pay attention. Who sponsored the bills? Was it the evil republicans, masterminded by Karl Rove and his Minions of Terror?
No. If you look at the sponsors, you will find that every one is a liberal democrat who, as I explained, either doesn’t really want the draft at all and is merely posturing, or they want the draft for reasons other than military readiness. That is, they want a draft because under a draft it would be harder for the president to commit conscripts compared to volunteers. Or they want a draft for social purposes…have everone in the nation undergo a shared experience, bring us together. And so on.
The fact is that a draft would lower military readiness, not increase it. For that reason the Pentagon will oppose the draft. The draft is also political poison. For that reason the President and the Republicans will oppose a draft.
The only people who are pushing the idea that a draft is possible are the usual crowd of Bush haters, with a leavening of confused parents who heard from the usual crowd of Bush haters that Bush is going to reinstate the draft. Why do I think the usual crowd of Bush haters is pushing the idea that Bush is going to reisntate the draft? Obviously because reinstating the draft would be so unpopular it would destroy Bush politically. And so they pretend to believe that Bush is going to reinstate the draft, because if he did it would prove how horrible he is. Same as the Clinton haters pushing the Vince Foster story, none of them deep down really believed it.
Yea, you try walking into Harlem and saying, “man, you people are poor.”
Yea, Bush really cares about his political outlook once he gets re-elected.
We aren’t saying they want a draft “in case” - we’re saying they want a draft so they can invade Iran or North Korea or whoever else they feel like. “Military readiness” has little to do with it.
I guess we’re “Bush haters” (your replacement for “you people”) because he deserves it. I can’t think of one instance where the Bush administration didn’t lie, exploit disasters, and otherwise act like an evil bastard for his own (psychotic) personal goals. The fact that no one is really surprised that he might re-enact the draft should say something to you.
As for it being pushed by “liberal democrats,” welcome to politics, chico.
In any case, the point of this thread isn’t that Bush would re-enact the draft - it is that it is possible to do so. The statement was made that it is political suicide to even talk about the idea, and it was presented that it, indeed, has been presented, and has gotten some support. Your reply to that is “OMFG DEMONCRATS DID THAT NOT LORD BUSH,” which is confusing in its own right.
Wow. That was really inappropriate and really uncalled for.
Your opinion has been duly noted and filed. Thank you for shopping at ZagCo.
Please. His tone and use of words was condescending. When applied to other groups, as you all have noted, it is outrageous. Thanks for pointing that out.
Zagadka, what are you talking about? I am expecting an apology for your insinuation of racism. Who brought up Harlem? In what context could my use of the phrase “you people” be thought to refer to blacks? Please apologize and retract your statement, or provide some evidence that I am, in fact, a racist.
And you’re not understanding what I mean when I say “military readiness”. I mean military readiness to wage war. Let’s say you’re right, and Bush is even now masturbating over plans to invade North Korea next year after he steals the election. The only question is: how to pull it off? Would reinstating the draft make the invasion easier, or more difficult?
It is my contention that a draft would make the invasion more difficult. Half-trained conscripts don’t have much of a role in today’s warfare except to stand around and get slaughtered. Look at how easily our regular troops defeated Saddam Hussein’s conscript army. Today’s army needs skilled tank drivers, artillery, special forces, and highly-trained infantry. Resentful confused conscripts won’t do much except fill a foxhole and provide a target. Grabbing high-school seniors, shoving a rifle into their hands, and sending them to the front lines is no longer an effective method of waging war.
How would an invasion of North Korea be helped by sending more kids with rifles? Every untrained kid needs to be fed, clothed, transported, provided medical care, housed, (minimally) trained, and babysat by sergeants and corporals. It would be simpler to just shoot them stateside and not waste the money and effort to ship them over to Korea to get shot.
So when Bush is sitting over his plans for world domination, and thinks about how much he’d love to draft the flower of our youth, he reluctantly concludes that the draft would not increase the power of his military machine, even if it would be fun on pure evil grounds. And then Karl Rove looks over his plans, and says they would be too costly on political grounds. Even a would-be fascist like Bush has to have support in congress to actually enact legislation, the president doesn’t have the authority to reinstate the draft, it would require an act of congress.
As to this:
I thought the point of this thread was to speculate about whether a draft was, in fact, going to be reinstated, and how likely that was. The fact that the bills were introduced by liberal democrats is highly relevant, because the congresspeople who introduced the bills knew that the bills had, in fact, no chance of actually passing. Why? Because Congress is controlled by the Republicans currently. You know as well as I do that congressmen propose all sorts of bills that have zero chance of being enacted. They do it as a bit of political theater, so they can go back to their constituents and say they supported National Woodchuck Appreciation Day and are still fighting for it.
These conscription bills weren’t introduced by people who want to give George Bush the raw materials to build his satanic war machine, rather the reverse. See, liberal Democrats generally oppose president Bush on these matters. So these bills purporting to reintroduce conscription aren’t political poison for THEM, because their liberal constituencies understand that they will not really pass. I live in Jim McDermott’s district. His sponsorship of one of these bills isn’t going to hurt him, because everyone knows he was against the war.
In a scenario where the president was calling for a draft, and the republican leadership was attempting to pass a for-real conscription bill then it would be a different story, wouldn’t you think? There are some whose constituencies might be in favor of a draft, but I can’t really think of any. Even in conservative pro-military pro-war areas of the country I don’t think they are in favor of the draft. But there are areas of the country where support of the draft might not be suicide. But there are plenty of other areas where it would be. Even if most Senators and Representatives wouldn’t lose their jobs over conscription, don’t you think many of them would? And wouldn’t that be likely to cost the Republicans control of Congress? And wouldn’t that be a disaster for the Republicans?
The fact is, it is disingenous for you to point to bills in congress introduced by people like Charles Rangel and Jim McDermott, and pretend that means that the country is gearing up to reinstate the draft. If Bush, or the Republican leadership, or even Republican backbenchers were pushing conscription you’d have a point. But take a look at Rangel’s statement, which I found at http://www.truthout.org/docs_02/010203B.rangel.oped.htm.
Now, does Charles Rangel think that a draft would help Bush accomplish his nefarious agenda, or does he think a draft would hinder Bush’s nefarious agenda? It will obviously hinder it. Now Rengel could be wrong, but I think he’s right in this case. So, even if we stipulate to Bush’s absolute unadulterated evilness, don’t you think it likely that Bush tries to avoid policies that hinder his nefarious agenda?
Bush will oppose a draft because it will make using the military overseas harder, not easier. So unless we have a Democrat controlled congress pushing conscription on an unwilling Bush administration and Pentagon, we will not have conscription. And if the Democrats controlled congress and wanted to block Bush’s adventurism they have much much much easier and less controversial ways to do it. Like voting to withdraw congressional approval for the deployment of troops to Iraq, maybe?