State of Alabama offices closed for Confederate Memorial Day

The BBQ Pit
61

[QUOTE=fervour]
With all due respect, Sauron. You live in a city that is 73.5% black, according to city-data.com. You also live in the largest city in Alabama. Don’t you think that could factor into your experience a bit? There are definitely pockets of enlightenment in Alabama. As there are definite pockets of extreme racism. If you are ever driving to Montgomery, take US 31 through Marbury and wind your way through rural Elmore county. That should enlighten you. Have you been up to Desoto State Park and the Little River Canyon National Preserve? If not you should. It’s beautiful. But, you don’t see many blacks enjoying those parks ----and I can understand why. Rural NE Alabama is Old South.
[/QUOTE]

Old South? What exactly do you mean here? I used to work at Little River Canyon. A few miles down the road is Mentone, which is a liberal hippie stronghold that makes Boulder look conservative. And, if by Old South, you mean dirt-eating poor, then you’re right. Right across the valley is Sand Mountain, which is one of the poorest areas in the nation. And on the other side of Sand Mountain lies Scottsboro, which is now so racist that they have a historic marker on the town square about the infamous “Scottsboro Boys” incident in the 1930’s. And then, of course, on the northern side of that corner, you have Huntsville, which might be one of the most progressive cities in the South.

You’re right about one thing, though. There aren’t many black people in the mountainous northeast corner of Alabama. Well, Gadsden is 34% black, but that’s the largest town in the region. I suspect the reason that more black people don’t live up there is, why would they move there. It’s still incredibly poor, there aren’t a whole lot of growth industries, and not many blacks have roots there. It was never a slaveholding region, and the culture on Lookout Mountain, Sand Mountain, and the Cumberland Plateau has always had more in common with Anglo-Irish-settled Appalachia than with the Black Belt. So basically, you have a bunch of white folks that are living in the place that generations of their families lived.

I think it’s more circumstantial than it is any institutionalized racism.

62

[QUOTE=villa]

I’ve never understood the idea that Lee was somehow better than the other traitors. In many ways, I view him and his ilk as worse - not only did they fight a war to preserve slavery, but they had sworn oaths of loyalty to the United States as part of its army. They had made that conscious, voluntary step, and then violated said oath. That’s a step further than someone who just happened to be born in the US and decided to fight for the South.

[/quote]

The thing about Lee and the others is that they didn’t stab anyone in the back when they switched sides. Unlike our most famous traitor – Benedict Arnold – Lee was very open about what he was doing. I’m going to cut Lee a little slack. He saw that his home was going to war with the United States and he chose his home over the nation as a whole. He chose the wrong side but that doesn’t make him a terrible person deserving of our contempt.

That said, does anyone really celebrate Robert E. Lee Day?

Marc

63

[QUOTE=Ogre]
Old South? What exactly do you mean here? I used to work at Little River Canyon. A few miles down the road is Mentone, which is a liberal hippie stronghold that makes Boulder look conservative. . . .
[/QUOTE]

I admit much of my opinion of NE Alabama is based on my assessment of the Scottboro area which I drove around while visiting the various state parks up there. My unscientific assessment of the cities in that area were that if you couldn’t pass for whitebread you’d be very uncomfortable. Your points about Huntsville and Mentone are noted.

I stand by my assessment of Marbury. I lived 20 miles from there for 12 years.

64

[QUOTE=Maureen]
Great! Now just pay those employees with Confederate currency, and I’ll be all for it.
[/QUOTE]

They’d love it- it’s worth a lot more than face value these days.

65

[QUOTE=MGibson]
. . . . He chose the wrong side but that doesn’t make him a terrible person deserving of our contempt.

That said, does anyone really celebrate Robert E. Lee Day?

Marc
[/QUOTE]

I mostly agree that he doesn’t deserve our contempt. I maintain that he doesn’t deserve our respect either, though. When I see respect as a standalone word, it’s tightly bound with the notion of honor which to me indicates a level of moral character ABOVE the average. Isn’t that what most people mean?

If one means respect as in what is deserved to all humanity then sure he deserves respect. If one qualifies respect, respect for his military ability, I can get behind that too.

66

[QUOTE=fervour]
If you are ever driving to Montgomery, take US 31 through Marbury and wind your way through rural Elmore county. That should enlighten you.
[/QUOTE]

I grew up in rural Elmore County. My family has lived in rural Elmore County since before the Civil War. My father was born in a tin-roofed log cabin in rural Elmore County and I grew up with old women who still wore “Little House on the Prairie” dresses and who did not have running water. I went to school in Wetumpka (in Elmore County) at a disgrace of an outdated CCC building with a class that was about half black and rode a bus that stopped to pick up/drop off students at places you wouldn’t think were occupied (literally tarpaper shingled things with broken windows). I daresay I’m more of an expert on the subject than you might be.
That said, I definitely knew some backwards ass and racist people there (was related to more than a few of them), but guess what? I’ve known some backwards ass racist people in Georgia, New Hampshire, on college faculties, etc., and pretty much everywhere I’ve lived. The main distinction of rural Elmore County are poverty, extreme religion, a huge have:have-not divide due to the lakes and upscale bedroom communities of Montgomery and the “never had it never will natives”. And an almost fanatical devotion to the Pope (which is odd since they’re mostly Baptists).

One of my favorite co-workers is the white husband of a black wife and swears that he’s encountered less racism in Montgomery than in his native Chicago or when he and his family lived in Iowa or small college-town California (it’s anecdotal, but he’s a statistician so that should count for something.

And? Do you support forced bussing to caves?

The reason there aren’t a lot more blacks in NE Alabama was because it was a very poor area of the country, which meant that before the Civil War there were very few plantations/slaves there (so few in fact that most of the region was pro-Union) and after the Civil War the people who already lived there were having enough trouble scratching livings out of the soil to really subdivide it further with more sharecroppers (and most Alabamians, white and black, were poor farmers). Now whether blacks are less likely to enjoy the mountains than other people I’ve no idea, never really gave much thought to it.
I did notice a weird absence of black people whenever I’ve been to Dahlonega about 1 hour north of Atlanta (which is predominantly black in the city proper). Never attributed it to racism, but if you insist. Are blacks appropriately represented at Telluride and Taos and Mt. Ranier any given time black I wonder?

67

Meant to add regarding Marbury (“regarding Marbury”- great name for an arthouse film) which is very close to where my mother’s relatives lived (Billingsley/Verbena/Isabella/etc.), you are aware of it’s history, yes? It was (due to a bequest of a farm there by Ladybird Johnson’s uncle Claude Patillo) the site of the state’s largest home for indigent Confederate veterans, roughly like a V.A. nursing home. Since, as old indigent soldiers will do, most of them died in that place, they were buried there, and other Confederate vets asked to be interred there as well, until Marbury became the site of the state’s largest Confederate cemetery (been there? Row after row after row of graves- including an ancestor of mine who was almost exhumed two years after his death when it was discovered he was a deserter [true story, I have the newspaper articles from the time]). That’s why even though Marbury is a little bitty pissant country place they have the big Confederate park, the huge rebel battle flag and tiny Civil War museum, reenactments, etc… (They also have a monastery/convent/winery in one of the last places on Earth you’d expect a monastery, convent, or winery, though the main reason I knew the place was a friend of the family who lived there, an intriguing if fanatical big haired lady who was a disgraced politician of the Wallace Era).

68

[QUOTE=Sampiro]
I grew up in rural Elmore County. My family has lived in rural Elmore County since before the Civil War. My father was born in a tin-roofed log cabin in rural Elmore County and I grew up with old women who still wore “Little House on the Prairie” dresses and who did not have running water. I went to school in Wetumpka (in Elmore County) at a disgrace of an outdated CCC building with a class that was about half black and rode a bus that stopped to pick up/drop off students at places you wouldn’t think were occupied (literally tarpaper shingled things with broken windows). I daresay I’m more of an expert on the subject than you might be. . . .
[/QUOTE]

I’ve lived in Alabama for all but 2 of my almost 42 years. Is this going to be a contest about who is the “real” Alabamian? I like your posts but tend to think you become sentimental when you post about the South in general. For the record, I’m happy to live in Alabama and intend to die here.

I don’t doubt that other parts of the country have their share of racists and bigots, but this thread is about how Alabama has 3, count them, 3 holidays in which to revel in racism. I’m all for getting racism out of the country. Let’s start with our state.

[QUOTE=Sampiro]

And? Do you support forced bussing to caves?

The reason there aren’t a lot more blacks in NE Alabama was because it was a very poor area of the country, which meant that before the Civil War there were very few plantations/slaves . . . . but if you insist. Are blacks appropriately represented at Telluride and Taos and Mt. Ranier any given time black I wonder?
[/QUOTE]

I’ve already admitted I don’t know a lot about NE Alabama. Are you really suggesting that black people may not enjoy the mountains? Do you really think African-Americans would feel welcome in Ft. Payne, Scottsboro, or the area in general? I don’t want to be putting words in your mouth, but it sounds to me like your rationalizing that they wouldn’t enjoy it. I can’t speak for anyone else. How could anyone NOT enjoy a drive through the Little River Canyon, or Buck’s Pocket?

69

[QUOTE=Sampiro]
the state’s largest Confederate cemetery (been there?
[/QUOTE]

been there? I used to jog or walk regularly the nature trails at that park. When I first went there hardly anyone was ever there except for the rare family reunion type thing. When I moved a year ago it had become quite popular.

70

BTW, Sampiro, your posts precede you. So I feel like I know you a bit. (Though I can’t imagin the feeling to be likewise with my pitiful contributions). Anyway, I read your posts with a Southern Genteel accent that I imagine you’d have:

[QUOTE=Sampiro]
Meant to add regarding Marbury (“regarding Marbury”- great name for an arthouse film) which is very close to where my mother’s relatives lived (Billingsley/Verbena/Isabella/etc.), you are aware of it’s history, yes?
[/QUOTE]

becomes

“mayunt to ayudd regodin Mar’bry (“regodin Mar’bry” - grayut name for an aruthouse film) which is vury close to wayur my mutha’s relatives lived. . .”

—which is not an insult at all. I love the cadence of a Southern Genteel accent.

71

[QUOTE=Mr. Moto]
Germany and Japan both would just as soon take whole unpleasant periods and pretend they never ever happened at all.
[/QUOTE]

Dude, the country’s over 2,000 years old. If we had a holiday for every damn thing that happened, we’d never get anything done!

72

[QUOTE=fervour]
BTW, Sampiro, your posts precede you. So I feel like I know you a bit. (Though I can’t imagin the feeling to be likewise with my pitiful contributions). Anyway, I read your posts with a Southern Genteel accent that I imagine you’d have:
[/QUOTE]
He claims not to have a southern accent at all, but I’d have to hear it to believe it, because he certainly *types *with an accent.

73

[QUOTE=fervour]
I’ve lived in Alabama for all but 2 of my almost 42 years. Is this going to be a contest about who is the “real” Alabamian?
[/QUOTE]

No, it’s about your posting specifically about rural Elmore County and implying it’s some sort of racist hellhole. I spent half my life there, and it’s simply not true.

I grew up gay and agnostic and usually without money in an extremely religious rural county in Alabama and in the middle of an extremely unhappy family. Trust me, the blinders are off. As for romanticizing southern history, I’ve started threads positing Jefferson Davis as my nominee for worst human in the history of the USA (barring serial killers and child molesters and washed up reality show stars) and stand on my statement- again, no blinders. I just have a sense of perspective about a freaking leftover holiday.

Might be a good idea not to speculate on them then, neh?

My honest guess would be- this is just me- that black people are individuals and that some love the mountains and some don’t. I’ve known black families who’ve traveled to Paris and Kenya and all over the world, I’ve known black (and white) families who’ve never taken a vacation in their lives due to $ (or lack of) and I honestly/truly know a black guy who enjoys dressing up as and impersonating a 12th century Welsh monk at SCA tournaments (he’s even learned Welsh). I have yet to hear any black person say “Man, I would love to take my kids to see the mountains, but last time we were up there those Klansmen gave Junior 23 lashes”. I didn’t notice many black people at the Smithsonian Institution or at the beach where my sister lives (an area that’s not only predominantly white but also largely inhabited by people who’ve relocated from the north), but I think it’s simplistic to say that it’s because they feel threatened in going there.

As for celebrating bigotry and hate— Dixiephrenia again (second definition). I don’t dispute for a second that the war wasn’t about slavery to its leaders, but I don’t even think that’s relevant to this thread- it’s a paid holiday. When I was growing up my Jehovah’s Witness relatives didn’t celebrate Christmas but they certainly didn’t mind taking Christmas break and getting paid doubletime for working Christmas Day and the like, and it’s the same with these things. Frankly I wish I had them off- I’d be happy to have Hermann Göring’s Birthday off so long as I got paid and didn’t have to give a Nazi salute.
Columbus Day is still a National Holiday after all, as is Thanksgiving, but nobody sees these as celebrating the great American subjugation of the indigenous people anymore than they see MLK day as a celebration of adultery and plagiarism. The Confederacy is an inescapable utterly unavoidable defining part of southern culture and Confederate Memorial Day is (to quote my father) “an empty gesture well played” that doesn’t revere every single facet of the Confederacy: there are no “Get these $10 iPod covers before they run away north!” sales or White Supremacy Barbecues at the Governor’s Mansion (anymore) or any acknowledgement at all really other than being able to hit the snooze alarm three more times if you’re a state worker.

74

[QUOTE=fervour]
BTW, Sampiro, your posts precede you. So I feel like I know you a bit. (Though I can’t imagin the feeling to be likewise with my pitiful contributions). Anyway, I read your posts with a Southern Genteel accent that I imagine you’d have:
[/QUOTE]

I don’t have a southern accent at all, actually. Neither does Ogre for that matter. Other than when we wish to, of course. :wink:

75

[QUOTE=MGibson]
The thing about Lee and the others is that they didn’t stab anyone in the back when they switched sides. Unlike our most famous traitor – Benedict Arnold – Lee was very open about what he was doing. I’m going to cut Lee a little slack. He saw that his home was going to war with the United States and he chose his home over the nation as a whole. He chose the wrong side but that doesn’t make him a terrible person deserving of our contempt.

That said, does anyone really celebrate Robert E. Lee Day?

Marc
[/QUOTE]

But he swore an oath. He was a United States Officer. He broke that oath, and was at least partially responsible for the deaths of many of the soldiers of an army he had held rank in. He wasn’t some Carolina farmer who had no allegiance to the Union other than having been born in its boundaries - he had chosen that allegiance. And that’s not even counting the fact that he was fighting for a reprehensible cause.

And anyway, Benedict Arnold was (eventually) supporting the legitimate government… :smiley:

76

[QUOTE=villa]
But he swore an oath. He was a United States Officer. He broke that oath, and was at least partially responsible for the deaths of many of the soldiers of an army he had held rank in.
[/QUOTE]

George Washington (as an officer in the Virginia militia, member of the Virginia assembly, and aide de camp to British General Braddock) would have sworn an oath, as would Benjamin Franklin (colonial representative for Pennsylvania/Georgia/New Jersey and several other colonies at the Court of St. James) and many other revolutionaries. Should they be dismissed as traitors for causing the deaths of many English and Canadian and even homegrown loyalists who were against secession?

For the first year of the war Lee never took the field against the north. He declined general’s commission, and wore a colonel’s insignia (his U.S. military rank) even when the general’s rank was forced on him. He took only non-combat assignments in North and South Carolina for 11 months overseeing infrastructure assignments and serving in advisory capacities in Richmond, hopeful that one way or the other the war would end in that time- that’s how torn he was. Finally by March 1862 (by which time he had freed all but a few of his father-in-law’s 150+ slaves- the last had to wait until that winter due to the liens on them) when it was clear that not only was the war not near an end but Virginia was having the shite kicked out of it, he could no longer not defend her. I’m not saying I agree with his decision, but it’s certainly understandable. (Do you greatly care who’s got the ethical upper hand when they’re destroying your fields and those of your family and neighbors?)

Lee was not in the league of the egomaniacal arrogant snob Davis. That said, Davis himself was far from one-dimensional; he was an ardent white supremacist even by 1860 standards, a man who ordered the murder of any black soldier in Federal uniform (an order many of his generals flatly refused to carry out), and yet Davis himself broke the law of Mississippi before the war to teach many of his slaves to read and later sold his plantation to a former slave on credit; the man was so beloved in the Davis family that when their oldest son son, Jeff Jr., died [he was about 20] he called for two people on his deathbed, the first being his mother and the second being that former slave cum plantation owner.

Joseph E. Johnston, the commander of the Army of Tennessee and one of the most powerful men in the Confederacy, was never once in his life a slaveowner. His head of cavalry, General Joseph Wheeler, grew up in Connecticut and Brooklyn and also never owned a slave. Their adversary in Tennessee and Atlanta was the Union General George Henry Thomas, a slaveowner, as was Major Robert Anderson who surrendered Fort Sumter in the first battle of the war and was brought back for its recapture as a Union high officer (and of course U.S. Grant was a slaveowner). Nathan B. Forrest- the only self-made millionaire among Confederate generals, earned fortunes from slavetrading and his actions at Fort Pillow are still heatedly debated and after the war he was head of the KKK, yet he also renounced the KKK in strongest terms soon after and worked himself half to death assisting the Freedmen’s Bureaus and other organizations seeking to educate and financially prepare blacks for freedom in Tennessee and Alabama after the war.

My reason for mentioning these things isn’t to say that slavery wasn’t the great reason why the south declared war- I believe it was- or to whitewash Davis- I can’t stand him- or Forrest- he was a [brilliant] bastard- but to show that the War and that the loyalties of the war and what the war was about to any given person on the individual level and even the mechanics of a large plantation built on slave labor and the racial views of these people- these were all just incredibly complex systems and incredibly complex people. There was nothing then and is nothing now remotely simple about war or the South or race relations anywhere. When people try to paint all southerners, even all Confederates, with “racist dumbass” brushes it is a major insult and it actually does much to explain much of why Southerners still resent being told to put the rebel flag away.

And again, it’s a goddamned paid off-day. Sheez.

77

From the OP: “There are way too many assholes in this state who like it just the way it is. I fully expect to hear from them later in this thread. I could be wrong though.”

Gee, all the other Alabama folk have been so nice so far! Just so your expectations don’t go wanting, I’ll oblige:

I don’t care if there’s a Confederate holiday or not. Giving state workers Lee’s birthday off suits me fine.

It eludes me how this is costing people living in California or other distant places tax money. If, say, Minnesota chooses to have a Paul Bunyan holiday, why should I give a flyin’ fuck?

And there’s always the old, “Put your heart in Dixie or get your ass out” thingy. I-65 is the quickest way north.

Now, the SDMB’s Resident Redneck[sup]TM[/sup] has spoken.

78

Pssst … fervor’s one of y’all …

:stuck_out_tongue:

By the way, John Carter is a grand southern name. John Carter! Go outside an’ play with yo chicken foot!

79

[QUOTE=NinetyWt]
Pssst … fervor’s one of y’all …
:stuck_out_tongue:
[/quote]

Yeah, bur Maureen ain’t and she’s the one bitchin’ about her tax money.

Cain’t play wif no chickin foot, Ahm too busy keepin’ th darkies down.

80

[QUOTE=John Carter of Mars]
Yeah, bur Maureen ain’t and she’s the one bitchin’ about her tax money.
[/QUOTE]

Oh, okies.