And I lived there for 12 years which isn’t half my life but isn’t exactly a weekend visit either. I can say that my experience was vastly different than yours. I picked my house because I liked it —made no assumptions about my neighbors initially, but in 12 years came to know them. I can say that only one of them wasn’t racist (She’d spread her legs for anyone who’d provide her money or drugs). Of course it wouldn’t be fair to generalize. The racism was as varied as people are. There was my next door neighbor, a nice elderly, Southern lady who just “called them neggeros because that’s what we always called them” —not quite the n-word, but just not quite. Her daughter lived close by and was enlightened. She knew some good black people. She’d let you know that some of them are OK people. There was the couple at the end of the street. They were n-word this and n-word that. It’s not like I went out looking for racists. It was more like, I believe it was Sophistry and Illusion’s experience where the default assumption was your white you must think like me. This wasn’t 12 years ago either. I moved from the area last summer.
I don’t understand this notion of white-washing things (no pun intended) or at least that’s how I’m perceiving it. It’s not like I’m saying that all Alabamians are racists. Of course I know many that aren’t. But to pretend that Alabama is this shining beacon of racial equality is laughable —if it weren’t so sad.
Sweet Jesus, fervour. Nobody’s saying that Alabama is a shining beacon of racial equality (even though I’m convinced it’s miles ahead of many, many other places in this country.) We’re saying that it’s not the festering cesspool of racism that you seem to think it is. It has its racists. Sure. But so does Massachusetts, New York, Pennsylvania, California, and every single other state in this country, and every single other country on this planet. You still haven’t demonstrated that it’s any worse than any other random geographical area, or why those three holidays indicate any real level of bigotry at all. You seem to just declare “racism,” and leave the rest of us to say .
And I’m betting they don’t celebrate Washington’s Birthday in the United Kingdom.
That’s the point so many southerners miss. Davis and Lee and Jackson declared war on the United States. And yet you see people who say they love America but go out of their way to celebrate the lives of those who fought against America.
More complexity. One thing does not necessarily negate the other. The South sends more people to the military than any other region of the country. There are loads of flag-waving patriots here. Yet they also honor their Southern roots.
We are large. We contain multitudes.
And I’ve noticed, Little Nemo, that you seem to have a hard-on against the South in these threads. Why is that?
Hmm. Were any of the American Revolutionary commanders former British officers? Are they “traitors?” The compact theory of government says that you owe allegience to a government up to the point where it stops serving your common aims. Then you dissolve it. You know, 1776 stuff.
Having officially abrogated the ties by seceding (which everything they knew told them they, like the Colonials, were allowed to do), no Confederates were guilty of being “traitors.” Treason is continuing to take the King’s shilling while selling him out.
I thought if your last name started with a C your month to keep the darkies down was February. (Oh wait, I guess they go with M for Mars- anyway, make sure you watch the rice patties, that’s where everybody agrees they meet.)
I can beat that one: my great-aunts never said “negro” in their lives and rarely said “colored”- it was always “nigra”. I can state with absolute conviction that there was not a racist bone, cartilage, or cell in either of their ancient bodies- that really was “what they always called them”. My mother used the n word a whole lot more than I’d have liked, and I’m not being the least bit naive when I say that there were black co-workers she loved dearly and unreservedly and didn’t think about their race nor they with her. The litmus test is “How did the old lady treat black people”?
My favorite exchange from PYGMALION:
Could have to do with the fact he never set foot there. Oliver Cromwell, otoh, dissolved the Parliament, beheaded the king, established himself as a theocratic military dictator, literally sent whole British families to the New World to be sold as slaves, and raped Ireland 9 ways to Hell (or Connaught) and gone, and his statue is at the Houses of Parliament.
What on earth makes you think we miss that point (other than the fact that for Lee and Jackson it isn’t true- neither was a member of the CSA government)? Besides which they didn’t want a war, they wanted to be an independent nation, which however ill advised that was there was certainly precedent in history and it was headed by people deemed national heroes, already almost legendary; remember that the Revolution, which even Franklin and Adams both conceded was an act of Treason against the Crown, was so recent that there were still Revolutionary War veterans living and drawing pensions from the government when the cannons fired on Sumter (which the CSA did not see as U.S. soil, incidentally but as southern soil since, oh, it was located smack dab in the middle of Charleston harbor (though it is situated on New England granite ballast stones, I’ll grant).
Show us where we go out of our way, exactly? The state offers a paid off-day and employees don’t show up for work that day… that’s not exactly dancing naked through Andersonville singing “Nyah nyah nyah nyah nyah!”
Southerners are damned near absurdly patriotic. I’m not at all proud of the fact, but I dare you to deface a flag or trash America loudly down here. Only one of our legislators voted “NO” on the 2005 flag-burning amendment in 2005. He represented my district at the time- his name is Artur Davis and I sent him a thank-you letter for being the lone dissenter from the state. He’s black, incidentally (and a self-made Harvard grad).
The South rejoined the Union at the point of a gun, but we did rejoin and did so as very loyal citizens. As Ogre points out the military tradition here runs deep, and it goes back to immediately after the Civil War: the Confederate General Joseph Wheeler later joined the U.S. Cavalry and led the charge up San Juan Hill (where admittedly according to some sources he had a flashback and yelled “C’mon boys! We got the Yankees on the run!”) and sent his sons to West Point; he served in WWII with General Nathan Bedford Forrest III in fact. These people were loyal to the U.S.A. before the war, they were loyal after the war, and during the war the vast majority fought for the same reason the vast majority of Unionists fought, which was because there was a war on and that’s what you do (especially when you’re being invaded just the same whether you were the owner of 1000 slaves or an abolitionist before the war). The merits of whether the south should have been allowed to secede are for Great Debates and not the Pit, but you generally show your ignorance and your weirdly rabid anti-Southern prejudice whenever you post on these matters- we (the Southern Dopers). Smart people who have studied history know that the truth is never simple.
I agree that southern history is large. But it always seems to keep coming back to the same five years. If southerners keep insisting on identifying the Confederacy as the most important event in their history, they’re going to be judged by that.
And southerners want to live in denial. They want to praise the Confederates for the way they fought while ignoring who they were fighting against and the cause they were fighting for.
Then there’s the superiority. Southerners keep acting like they are better than everyone else. The things they claim as Southern values are American values and are found in the north just as readily as the south.
I don’t go out of my way to ever insult southerners. But southerners keep bringing the subject up. And when they do I point out my views.
What else is as uniquely southern? We had the Depression and World Wars and what not, but those five years (point of fact: it was 4 years, April 1861-April 1865) are pretty important.
[Judge Chamberlain Potter from MY COUSIN VINNIE]“Uh son… you do know that millions of black people are southerners too- both ge’graphic’ly and culturally- don’t ya? The Confederacy’s kinda an odd and I might say insultin’ to judge them by.”[/Judge Chamberlain Potter from MY COUSIN VINNIE]
I just recently spent some time in Huntsville and parts south and didn’t have the same experience at all that Sophistry and Illusion did. I never do when I go there.
I attended an informal meeting of the Huntsville ballet board members. It is well integrated and I didn’t see the races devided off into groups. They were busy preparing for a visit from members of the Kirov Ballet in Russia.
I also travelled all the way from the Tennessee border to the Gulf Coast and back again – a total of about 800 miles without seeing one single Confederate flag. I did stop at many restaurants where blacks and white worked together and seemed to be plenty friendly with each other. They also arrived together, ate together and left together.
I have not heard unpleasant words used to describe blacks in Alabama in many years and that was by a generation that has passed. They were my elders and it was not my place to correct them. I do speak up to anyone who says anything in my presence now because I am old enough and they should know better than to offend an old woman in the South.
Although there is pleasantness and friendliness among the races in Tennessee, I am convinced that Alabama is more advanced than we are in that respect.
Besides, everybody knows that it’s not “dust” that you shake from your feet in Alabama.
Maureen, ease your mind. No one but a handful of knuckle dragging loud-mouths believe that the institution of slavery or the inferiority of blacks is a good thing. That’s not what “the Confederacy” has come to mean. Some people celebrate the Confederacy when they really mean “the South.” And there are still those that believe in States’ Rights but have no intention of fighting a war over it. That is just one of their political beliefs.
I don’t know of anyone who really gives a hoot about Jefferson Davis anymore, but Robert E. Lee is a different thing. It will take a long time before people in the South will think of him as a traitor. We still have schools and highways named after him and statues of him in our parks. We were taught that he was a gentleman even though the South was wrong about slavery. I’m not defending him to you. I’m just telling you that this is the way it is here. You expect us to take the point of view of the Union just because we were born into a United States. It just doesn’t work that way. I mean you no disrespect.
He was my grandfather. I have watched my own father cry for his papa. My father was such a good man who cared about others who did without. He was ashamed of the Confederacy. His papa was sorry for what he had fought for too. There are always young men eager to rally to a call to arms with their brothers.
Mr. Moto, thank you for the kindness of your words. You are a conservative and I am a liberal. I do not understand the blindness of liberals who are so prejudiced about white Southerners that they believe that we are all right out of the Dukes of Hazzard.
Just a reminder: You know those guys who do the redneck comedy routines? They are rich, rich rich and drive big cars.
Thanks for all the responses. I won’t be participating in the thread any longer for a few reasons but not because of any ill will.
The state’s open for business today. So I can file the paperwork that wants filing. I almost drove to Montgomery yesterday but then remembered it was the last monday in April. It was either yesterday or the prior Monday that the state would be closed. Google verified what we all know.
Having an online discussion is exhausting. How do you regulars do it? I much prefer being entertained to providing the entertainment. Think I’ll stick to IMHO where drive-bys are not only not frowned upon but expected. Better yet I’ll just lurk.
In my original OP I stated that too many assholes in Alabama liked things the way they are and that I expected to hear from them. That was a bit strong —trying to use good form in the pit and all. What I really expected was Alabama apologists to come in and say “It’s not that bad here” —which is what happened. Of course it’s not that bad here. Given the choice between Alabama and most of the rest of the world I imagine that most Californians would chose Alabama. I’d definitely choose California over most of the rest of the world if the tables were turned.
Alabama has 3 official holidays in which it glorifies old South values and to a lesser extent slavery. It would have been nice if rather than being apologists my fellow Alabamians would have said “man that’s fucked up” rather than “but the north is racist too”.
Sampiro, you might have taken my statements about Elmore county personally as it is your home. For the record, Elmore is my favorite county in the river region. Wetumpka is by far the best city around there. It still has the old southern charm and character. (Prattville and Millbrook, OTOH seem to be suffering from the schizophrenia of being a Montgomery 'burb, housing units for Maxwell AFB, and southern cities). I love Elmore. I can’t visit Ft. Toulouse without Madonna queuing up in my mind singing “this used to be my playground. . .” No, not like Senator Craig. I used to jog there every day after work on my way home.
Final parting thoughts: I LOVE YOU, MAUREEN. You can’t possibly know me because I don’t post much. But if I weren’t a partnered queer and you a lady, and we didn’t live on the opposite ends of the continent, and you were into me, and I was into you— Man, I’d so marry you! ----As it is, I’ll just join your fan club.
BTW, Although I won’t post anymore, I’ll stop by to read any additional posts.
Er… Washington was a traitor, by any objective measure. The measuring stick isn’t whether or not he was justified, it’s whether or not the colonies won the War of Independence.
What do you think he’d be called if the US was still under British rule?
With all due respect … I live in a suburb of Birmingham that is integrated. However, I grew up in Talladega County, in a mill town. My family was probably upper-lower-class. My schools were about 60/40 white/black.
The irony here is, you’re willing to say there are pockets of extreme racism in Alabama, along with pockets of enlightenment, but you’re apparently NOT willing to say that’s a human characteristic, NOT a regional characteristic.
This is rich. Read any number of threads on this board over the past several years, whenever Alabama or the South is brought up. Heck, just read this thread. Alabamians (and Southerners) are told over and over how ignorant, backwards, racist, and just plain dumb we are. And whenever people are called on it, the usual response is “Oh, I don’t mean YOU – you’re one of the good ones.” Which is the same type of response racist people give when they’re called on their statements about blacks, or Asians, or Hispanics, or whatever.
Of course, sometimes people respond differently when they’re told their being prejudiced against a group with no reason: They say the person castigating them is being “uppity.” Which, frankly, is the way your “superiority” quote reads to me.
Do you have a cite for this? The American Revolution ended in 1783 and the Civil War started in 1860. I find it a bit difficult to believe that a veteran of the American Revolution would have lived for another 77 years after the war ended. I know there were a few folks still around from the War of 1812 but that’s a bit different.
Thanks for the lecture on Davis, Forrest and Johnston, none of whom were being discussed by me, and which information I already knew. I never painted all Southerners as ‘racist dumbasses’ or even all Confederatesd as racist dumbasses. I’ve lived in the South for about half my time in the US, and I love it here. I have also never been in as racist a city in my life as the years I spent living in Philly - not even Boston got to that level.
But, bottom line, Lee was a traitor, and was a traitor on behalf of an abhorrent cause. Whether he was a personal racist or not really doesn’t bother me. I think he ore than likely was, but then again so were the vast majority of those involved in the war on both sides.
I agree with you in general, but I do have to admit that there’s a giant Confederate flag right on I-65 between Birmingham and Montgomery. It’s not far from the famous “Go to Church or the Devil Will Get You” billboard.
It looks like there would have been at least a few Revolutionary War veterans who actually lived to see Appomattox. I’m going by Wikipedia’s list of last surviving war veterans.
My parents wrote the proposals and grants that got Ft. Toulouse funded, incidentally. Though they’re forgotten- not mentioned anywhere there. Irritating. Still love the place though- I was on the team that built the first French soldier’s barracks. Liked to have never gotten all the mud off- it took several baths.
If you want some great reading or a nice writing project, the Marchand/Wind/McGillivray/Weatherford genealogy is the barebones of an out-of-this-world potential historical novel that would run for a century from 1714 to 1815. Begs to be written. I’ve started it many times, but life intervenes.
I think it would have been nice if my dogs had learned how to make me coffee and omelettes each morning, but…
We live in a time of record foreclosures where gas is moving to $4/gallon (while oil companies show record profits) and a foreign war that has already cost enough to buy homes for every family in Alabama has no end in sight is still taking lives, and when education in the state is deplorable and at that we’re not the worst… and you’re worrying about the name of a holiday, a matter that does not demonstrably lower the quality of life for any human being even a tiny fraction of a percent. I see this as roughly the equivalent of worrying over whether the towels and washcloths in the guest bathroom match while ignoring the fact that the kitchen is currently on fire.
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