State of Florida vs. George Zimmerman Trial Thread

In My Humble Opinion
1041

This is an excellent point, Stoid. I’d also like to add that Ms. Fulton’s first-born son, 4 years older than Trayvon, studied at both FAMU and FIU and is currently in his senior year of college. Ms. Fulton is also well-educated and also has a stable job for 20+ years, suggesting, at least to me, that’s she is/was at minumum competent in her profession. Bringing Trayvon’s older brother was genius because it shows that Ms. Fulton’s boys aren’t disrespectful, running the streets, or gangbanging. It also shows that she’s a good mother which, frankly, desperately needed to be highlighted for the jury. There’s very little reason to think that Trayvon would not have followed his mother or brother’s footsteps.

  • Honesty
1042

Perhaps he would of followed in their footsteps but doesn’t this lend itself to evidence about character which is not what the prosecution wants.

1043

Thank you for paying attention to my question.

Does the prosecution have a position as to what positions Zimmerman and Martin’s bodies were in at that time, i.e. while Martin was allegedly screaming for help?

1044

Interesting article from Washington Post.

1045

Very good article. The choice quote is this, I feel -

  • and could apply to many people here.
1046

Excellent article.

1047

At first I was afraid you were going to make me agree with a Jennifer Rubin op-ed. But then she still managed to take it over the top. Whew!

1048

‘Hispanic’ is pretty generic. They’re Peruvian Indians.

1049

Just curious, what part did you find over the top?

1050

Martin had no key in his possession at the time, and I think it’s safe to assume that most residents of Sanford lock their doors. How was he supposed to get in?

One possibility is that he knew the code to an automatic garage door opener. If it were me though, I’d be afraid that my stalker could just follow me in during the time it takes a garage door to open and shut. You can’t slam that sucker shut behind you in a hurry.

Another possibility is that he was supposed to knock and Chad was supposed to let in him. But Chad, like many kids his age, was tucked inside a pair of headphones, oblivious to the world outside of his room. And then you got Martin, on a maybe lit porch or stoop, pounding on a door while his pursuer comes closer and closer..

1051

Wait, you’re serious. You’re actually gloating, doing a happy dance over how well this is going for the prosecution? Is this a whoosh? No? Wow, that’s pretty amusing. And the Black Knight was actually winning as well, right?

1052

They probably are, at least in part, since the vast majority of Peruvians claim mestizo or full Amerindian descent. But I’m a big believer in calling people what they want to be called, and Gladys, George, and Robert Jr. refer to themselves as Hispanic, and occasionally Afro-Peruvian.

1053

I find it hard to understand why anyone would be gloating over any aspect of the case. I guess it’s the Team ### concept that I find so foreign.

1054

It’s a reference back to the previous discussion about TM being a “child,” “minor,” “high school kid.”

It’s probably a tangental topic in general, as I’m sure there have been SDMB threads on the transition between child and adult, and there’s a lot of literature out there about whether adolescence is a social construct, a universal developmental stage, or something in between. It’s the sort of discussion we’d have when talking about our grandparents being married and having kids at age 16, whereas today we have 30 year olds still living with their parents.

Where I think it’s relevant to the discussion at hand is: can we nail down how we will represent Trayvon Martin?

I contend that if we put him in the “child” box, then the burden of responsibility would have to shift to his parents. Look at Harris and Klebold–high school kids in Colorado.

When they shot up Columbine, at least part of the national reaction was: how did these kids get their hands on the firearms? Where were the parents? How could they have made and tested all of those pipe bombs?

Harris and Klebold were stupid, and they ended up dead. But in the public’s mind, their parents were held responsible for a lot of it, no?

My personal opinion is that Harris and Klebold were “adults” and, had they lived, I’d have expected them to be tried as adults. They, IMHO, certainly knew right from wrong, and regardless of the cognitive development of their prefrontal cortexes, absolutely committed a crime that I’d have sent them to death for.

SO

I simply can’t subscribe to the Trayvon Martin = “child” opinion. At 17, I would, just as I would Harris & Klebold, consider him to be an adult. He’s adult enough for society to allow him to operate a motor vehicle, adult enough to consent to sexual relations, adult enough to early-enlist in the military, adult enough to drop out of school without his parents’ consent…etc.

And if that’s true, then I have to expect him to be adult enough to be responsible for what happened the night of his death. No, I don’t lay any blame at the feet of his parents, because I consider him to be an adult. But others in this thread don’t share my opinion, and have argued that TM was a child–consistent with the way he was portrayed in the media; the smiling kid in the red shirt, in other words. This isn’t one of those issues where I just can’t fathom taking that opinion. But if you take it, then I think you should own it, and that means putting the ultimate responsibility for a child on the parents.

Looks like an Uncle Mike’s brand holster, or similar. And it’s an outside-the-waistband holster, for a right-handed person. I thought someone in the thread reported that Zimmerman was wearing an inside-the-waistband holster. Was that inaccurate? Regardless, a holster of that type is going to very easily slide along the belt. It could have been anywhere between beltloops at any time.

1055

(Missed my edit window)

And for a vigilante, wannabe cop who was out stalking for minorities, Zimmerman chose a piece-of-shit cheap Kel-Tec 9mm and the cheapest holster available.

1056

I happen to agree. I think Zimmerman, as a matter of law should walk and the case should never have gone to trial. But it’s an interesting discussion for me, and no more. At the end of this, regardless of the outcome, I don’t think any horrible precedent will then stand. It would be an “OJ trial” type outcome, IMO, if Zimmerman is convicted. But we’d get over it, and too bad for Zimmerman…

I do think (as I said earlier) that for some people this stands as a measure of one’s commitment to opposing racism and profiling and oppressed minorities (and other stuff, I’m sure), so they simply cannot reconcile certain aspects of the case with their commitment. Zimmerman is a pathological liar, whose lies are self-evident, relevant and critically important, it has been asserted over and over again. That tribe is incredulous that everyone doesn’t see it this way, since if that’s not so, then an absolutely blameless minority hasn’t been profiled and murdered–and that’s already a given! So, d’uh, Zimmerman lied and should go to prison (for something). It becomes an “us good guys” versus “those bad guys,” with clear teams and only one good outcome, evidence be damned.

Not for everyone, but for a lot of people in this thread, ISTM…

1057

All of the following (some of which she is quoting):

Each of those is either factually wrong, legally incorrect, or wildly overstated.

1058

The claims that the dispatcher did not (and indeed, had no authority to) instruct Zimmerman in anything, let alone not to follow Martin is factually true, as is the statement that the prosecution has a duty to present a balanced account in the affidavit, and hand over any and all exculpatory evidence they find to the defence.

The important point this article raises is that the State and the prosecution have an ethical and legal duty to ensure that conviction can only happen if the evidence is for guilt beyond reasonable doubt, and to only take the case to trial if there is a chance of winning. They have failed on both these counts.

This - the greatest problem with how this case has been handled, in my opinion - has nothing to do with Martin’s death, or Zimmerman’s culpability. It has to do with having trust in the justice system, with being able to have faith that we will be judged by the system - with it’s power to deprive us of liberty or even life - solely on the evidence and on the law as it is written and interpreted at the time we act. A government and judiciary that can bring charges against people solely because of political pressure, because a group of people dislike someone’s actions or some law, is a danger to everyone, and those who support such a government - specifically, those that support this farce of a trial going ahead - are equally dangerous, to themselves and to all of us. And far more dangerous than Zimmerman or Martin.

1059

For the first claim, all the weight is being placed on the choice of verb “instruct.” Of course, the dispatcher did say “we don’t need you to [follow him].” At least one reasonable reading, if not the most reasonable one, is that she meant they’d prefer he not do that. His going ahead and doing it anyway is circumstantially relevant. I happen to think it doesn’t mean all that much in the end, and that it isn’t clear that he was following Martin after that comment was made. But it is wrong, or at least overstating it, to say “This also is known not to be true, because alleged instruction never occurred.” That’s highly misleading.

For the second claim, what she (or the “legal expert”) is implying is that the state is obligated in its affidavit of probable cause to present a balanced view of the facts about the claim of self-defense. That is not correct. And I don’t think she’s making a claim about Brady evidence, as you suggest.

1060

What witnesses should we expect for the defense? Anyone found any good articles that report who’s on the witness list?

I know the prosecutor called several defense witnesses already.

Isn’t there a M.E. that the defense will use? There were a lot of errors in the handling of the state’s forensic evidence. Wet clothing mildewing in plastic bags. A lack of detailed autopsy photos. The rain washed away blood evidence. A defense expert can easily show problems with the state’s forensic evidence.

I don’t think they can risk character witnesses? Any testimony describing George’s character would open the door for the state to bring up George’s past. The bar fight with a cop. The mutual restraining orders that George and a gf brought against each other. That means no testimony describing George as a great guy. The mentoring he did for troubled youths. That can’t come in without the prosecution bringing in the negative stuff.

Any other defense witnesses that’s been reported?