Statue of limitations for God to punish you?

Great Debates
21

How can you say what is “just” when it comes to a God’s judgement? Ever been around very young children and do something that is in their best interest (say stopping them from playing with matches and gasoline) but they see your judgement as totally unfair?

God is omniscient and omnipotent and we are less than a child in comparison. If God chooses to punish us how can a mere mortal gainsay that decision?

I do not think positing an arbitrary God makes sense since the Universe we live in works with amazingly complex clocklike precision. If God is omnipotent and arbitrary it seems unreasonable to suppose we’d see such a universe rather than some craziness.

I would also posit that God needs to be either neutral or good and not evil as an evil God (I’d lump an arbitrary God in as an evil God) would probably not allow good to exist in their universe.

That said I allow that as I mentioned before knowing the mind of God from our mortal perspective is not really possible so maybe God is evil and arbitrary and made the universe this way for some unfathomable purpose. Nevertheless I cannot shake the notion that if God were actually evil/arbitrary the world would likely make a lot less sense than it does now.

22

Some reasons : I’m the one doing the suffering, not God. For that matter, I have no desire to be worshipped, which makes me more moral,saner, or both than God. I see no reason to beleive God cares in the slightest for my welfare, so why should I trust his judgement ?

False hope. He lets us hope for Heaven, then throws everyone but the Hitlers and Stalins in Hell.

23

If God does exist then your aggreived stance matters not a whit. God holds all the cards and you exist at God’s whim. You can disagree with God’s judgment all you like but in the end it either makes some kind of sense that your mere mortal mind cannot comprehend or God is arbitrary so it’s anyone’s guess what might happen. Either way you are stuck.

By the way, it is possible to think there is a God who does not give a hoot about being worshipped. Humans worship because a priestly (or their peers) power structure that has its own self interests at heart told us we must. Frankly I would be shocked if God is vain enough to care whether I grovel to him daily or weekly or whatever. I would think a God would likely know me and what is in my heart probably better than I even do (pesky omniscient thing again). I would think God would judge on the overall person you are and not because you attended church regularly. Heck…some of the worst people I have known were regular church goers. Not saying church makes you bad necessarily but mere attendance at church certainly does not make you good.

24

First, a response to StewieGriffin420. Time here is not relevent. Can you make amends? Then do so. But what is important is that you are sorry for what you have done. Then, ask for forgiveness from God. As a Catholic, I would encourage you to seek confession, but I can’t force it on you.

Not this again. I mean no offense, Whack-a-Mole, but I’ve seen this particular bit of fluff too many times.

There are some Christians who believe your version of things. They are not represenative, and tend to be less-than-theologically-inclined. Suffice it to say that no major division of Christianity, with the possible exception of the Mormons, believes this.

Nevertheless, most Christians believe it our duty and honor to spread the word of the Word of God. We call it the “Good News,” but those who do not hear are not abandoned by God. He is everywhere and uncontainable and uncontaminated by mortal sin. That said, we believe that it better to know what you are worshipping - and that applies to Christians as well. There are indeed too many in this world, Christians and non-Christian, who worship the things of this Earth. They are obsessed with power, pride, wealth, and status. These things are not of God, except as God chooses to grant them. And he gives to most what they desire most. And everyone gets what they deserve eventually.

What is important is that the individual have a heart not so small and stuffed with trivialities, or so hard and proud, that it cannot accept God’s forgiveness. Can you admit error and accept that you are weak and mortal? Then God can guide you and there is nothign to fear. But woe to those who do not, for they will not allow themselves to be saved.

Now if you, Der Trihs, wish to not believe in God, or wish to to pretend he has no right to judge you, do so. But when you sin and do wrong, you do wrong to God as well as to man, for God is goodness itself. All your crimes are against God, and it is to Him that you must be justified. Legal rights? Whether you admit it or not, you (as do we all) constantly commit acts criminal in the only sense that matters.

This does not mean that I expect you (or anyone else) to walk around with a sad heart wailing over the crimes you (or anyone else) has committed. We are pitiful and do much harm in ignorance. Which is why we may be forgiven. (“Father, forgive them, for they know not what they do.”) Jesus did not come to condemn but to save. Those who are readying themselves for the next life are not usually miserable creatures, but joyful!

What I would ask - what I, as a Christian ask of everyone - is that you lose your anger. For I see anger in you, a contempt not only for God (as you have said implicitly: if He exists you hate Him) but for those who hold to the faith. You have been admonished many times on this board, not only by those who disagree with you, but by those who do not believe in God.

Instead, do not hate. If you disagree, do so kindly. If you offend, apologize (believe me, I know how hard that is, and it is something I struggle with every day). If the one you offended does not accept, you have still offered, and God will see your meekness of spirit. If you hate, then do not act upon it.

We are all of us engaged in play- a farce, even. We act good when our natures beg for bad. We pretend civility with those we despise. Yet this is not a joke: for there are two kinds of playing in the world: frivolous amusement (and it has its own importance) and practice. Actors do not know their roles when they begin; it is only by hard work that they “become” their characters. We do not become civil by reading a booklette of manners. Instead, we practice and practice and act civil when we despise. Good is the same. If you wish to become good, then you must act good even when it is not easy. believe me, I know. It’s a struggle daily to be good, and I don’t always succeed.

I won’t pretend that you will just believe in God, either. Nor would I ask you to; it is better to beleive something right or wrong, than to lie about it. But to keep your heart open is not much to ask. God is like the Force: when you are calm and at peace, he will guide you. He does not come when uninvited; he is a patient guest who waits for you to end all those phone calls and dates and business.

25

You’ve seen the correct answer, that according to Christianity it all happens in the afterlife. First, forget about being good - in Christianity you’re a sinner from the start, so without the proper ass kissing you get damned no matter what you do.

Second, this belief came to be no doubt because of the embarrassing observation that bad people prosper in this life, and good people suffer, so unless you promise pie up in the sky, no one is going to pay much attention to your religion. This is nothing new - the prophets noticed that evil Hebrew kings lived long lifes and died in bed, while good ones died early for random reasons. The god will punish you in this life theory gets falsified all the time.

26

Once again, I said God has no right to judge me. Having more power makes him no righter.

And of course, you have evidence that this god of your not only exists, but is actually good ? No, I thought not.

Yeah, I bet they grinned while they rammed those planes into the World Trade Center.

And by opposing religion, I believe I do good. I consider religion to be the greatest evil and danger ever to exist in human history. In the long run, I don’t believe humanity can survive both the innate irationality and malice of religion and the increasing power of technology. Eventually we will give up religion, blast ourselves back into a more primitive state, or perish.

27

Well, the planets move nice and regularly, absent the occasional comet or asteroid crashing into one, or the occasional colliding galaxy. But do you see the moral world as regular? I see bad things happening to good people, random natural disasters killing hundreds of thousands, sinners as billionaires and good people being poor. Exactly how could our world be less ordered?

Yet a good god allows evil. Perhaps an evil god allows good, because a good person suffers more from bad things happening than an evil one. Maybe it is more evil to harm a good person than an evil one. Maybe having free will but failing is worse than not having free will and being punished. I could explain away the problem of good just as easily as you do the problem of evil.

28

If breathing were criminal, only criminals would breath. If god made us so that it is impossible not to sin, I reject being morally responsible for much of that sin. I can see asking forgiveness for bad stuff I do, but not begging forgiveness for being born, which is basically what Christianity tells us we must do.

When I was a teenager, I went every year to shul to ask forgiveness of my sins on Yom Kippur, and I asked to be written in the book of life for the next year. That seems to me a good way of asking repentence. It was between me and god. (I don’t believe in god anymore, but not because I had bad religious experiences.) If I didn’t get written in the book of life, I died. Period.

In Christianity, that doesn’t work. I’m sinful no matter what, and only believing in Christ, not asking forgiveness, keeps me from damnation. That’s extortion. It certainly has worked well, but it is still immoral. If there was a god who worked like that, as well as supposedly killing millions in floods and massacres, hatred of that god seems perfectly justified. Any god worth worship would not want followers who would think him capable of such evil.

God can torture me. The bad cop on the corner can shoot me down. The bully down the street can beat the crap out of me. That don’t make it moral.

29

Except ( as I’m sure you know ), quite a few people have this bizarre attitude that if God wants/orders something, it’s moral because it’s God doing so. I have never understood the attitude that morality is defined by God, especially as the people who say so disagree so much.

30

And once again I am saying it is not up to you to decide what rights God does or does not have. If God exists and God created this Universe and everything in it you are playing by God’s rules. If God created mankind and gave them free will to do good or bad and set it so you get judged at the end of it all then it is God’s right to do so. God’s house, God’s rules.

Additionally I do not think it is even possible for anyone to gainsay what rights a supreme being has. It woud be akin to asking an ant what rights you possess. The ant is simply not on a conscious level in comparison to you to even begin to form a useful opinion on the matter.

31

That’s because God has never unambiguously pointed out exactly what, according to God, moral behavior is. Some would say God did do so in the Bible but then of course you have diffferent versions of the Bible not to mention the Torah and the Koran and whatever other religious writings you care to name. Add to that even those can be a bit vague in many places so you get differing interpretations (not to mention translations and re-writings) of the same book. Then add that “moral” behavior seems to be a moving target. What was once considered “ok” in ancient times is not ok today (or vice versa) or what one society considers moral another does not.

For my money God could make it all unambiguous if God so chose but the point is to have free will and make your own way through life for better or worse. The alternative would make us not much better than a nifty programmed robot locked in to the goals set forth by God.

32

Just because the Supreme Thug decrees something right doesn’t make it right. Power is not moral superiority.

I am far tinier and less capable than a government, yet I feel perfectly justified in asserting my rights if the government says I don’t have them. I am human, and do things on a human scale. I am perfectly capable of judging human scale matters, and see no reason to believe God’s opinion would be better than mine - if nothing else, I care what happens to me.

Besides, the question is not what rights God has; since we can’t affect him, the question is meaningless anyway. The question is what rights we have. Since God evidently has zero concern for our welfare, I see no reason to value his opinion. An omnipotent jerk is still a jerk. Q with an even bigger ego.

33

No, that would make it a plan. The existance of a plan doesn’t violate free will, since you can just ignore it.

34

Good point but then going against a literally unambiguous word of God (don’t ask me how that would manifest itself…just go with it…burning writing in the sky or something) would almost certainly be deemed a prime definition of insanity in society. Chances are excellent those who tried to go against it would be locked up or tossed off the nearest cliff.

35

That would be like the question as to whether once you are in Heaven you can still sin. Having perfect true knowledge of what is good and what is evil and insisting in that you should face no ill consequence for acting contrary to it is just being perverse.

Though if a God exists, she apparently decided to give us something to occupy our minds during the existence of time, and has made her stand on it as clear as mud.

In any case, as mentioned, not all Christianity believes that everyone’s going to Hell if they don’t do the sacred Jesus-hokey-pokey motions. Many Christians hold that those who know not Christ, but seek righteousness, are indeed seeking the same ultimate source and will be granted mercy.

36

I understand it. It’s because, if you believe the Bible, God’s actions are so unquestionably immoral that they’d either be questioning some very fundamental parts of their religion or have to admit they’re worshipping a monster. So much easier to think that it is all for some good, but unknown, reason. Christians aren’t the only religious types who do this. Think of all the Communists who were sure Uncle Joe had a good reason for killing the kulaks, and for signing the non-aggression treaty with Hitler.

37

Except that the Bible shows people going against the express will of a god who just led them, via miracles, out of slavery. They had free will.

Why did Jesus do miracles? Wouldn’t true free will require people to believe him by his words alone?

Why did God punish Moses for smiting the rock with his staff? It was because it gave the people the chance to believe the water came because of his hitting it, not because of God’s miracle. This goes exactly opposite of what you are claiming God wants. So, your opinion is anti-Biblical.

God did a really crappy job on us if the slightest bit of evidence took away our free will. It is a wonder that we all don’t vote the same way. with our easy to lead nature.

38

No one is demanding perfect true knowledge. The argument goes that we can’t even get a clue.

And, as I just posted, it is not even Biblical. This, no evidence because of free will argument is very, very, weak, and clearly exists to explain away the lack of a sign of god in documented history. Godot ain’t showing up, guys, and you can stop waiting.

39

Those types too, but I’m really talking about the people who believe God defines morality. The sort who think that if God tells you to sacrifice your son, it’s right not because of some unknown or unknowable factor, but simply because he’s God.

40

Well, yes, since for a believer of that line of religion, God=right is a fundamental axiom as surely as A=A because God would be the source and origin of everything including morality.

How someone can believe that may never make sense to you – just as your counterargument may never make sense to them. However the fact remains that if given that definition of “God”, then that “God” would be “right” to judge you – by those parameters. The validity of that definition, or of morality as a quality independent of a source, is a different issue.