I’m not calling people racist, for the most part – I’m calling assertions racist. I don’t think I’ve even called Chief Pedant a racist, despite his repeated insistence that black people are inherently inferior, on average, in intelligence, and despite revealing slip-ups like inadvertently comparing black people to cockroaches. I just think (and I post) that he’s said a bunch of racist things.
So I’m just calling out the “actions” – the actions of asserting racist things. Those racist things are racist, and I’m going to call the assertions racist.
No, they’re not. Or, more importantly, there’s no way you or anyone else could ever know that they have those beliefs, and their having those beliefs has no effect on anything.
Something that is unknowable and has no effect on anything does not, in any real sense, exist.
And this is the point. For it to be a useful, meaningful, concept, “racism” is not a property of something, but an action taken. Someone is racist if, and only if, they act in a racist fashion.
Interesting, though, that you refer to my “headvoices”. Glad to find another level of bigotry from you, this time against the mentally ill. Lovely to see. We can add that to the racism and homophobia, and a more general prejudice against those whose sexual proclivities you dislike.
But it does bring up an interesting point. People do hear voices in their heads, and those voices do not exist. If a schizophrenic hears a voice saying “blacks are subhuman” but ignores it, is he racist? If not, why is the non-schizophrenic who also has something in his head that says that, but ignores it?
That seems to be what does, in fact happen. On both an individual and societal level, the more people mix with other races, the less they express racist thoughts, at least after some time has passed. In the short term, racist actions can go up because of the greater opportunity for them to occur.
Which is fine with me. If I think you’ve gotten it very wrong at some point, I might let you know.
And (speaking to others) it shouldn’t be scary or a big deal for someone to say “what you said/did makes me think you’re a racist”. That’s a good start to a conversation – just say “I’m sorry, I didn’t think so – here is why I didn’t think it was racist” or “oh my goodness, it didn’t occur to me that that might be racist – maybe I have some biases and bigotries that I was unaware of”. Then talk about it. Maybe the guy was wrong, maybe you were – but it’s not a big deal. There’s no reason for fear and anxiety.
this is a bankrupt statement. It is this sort of thing that makes it painful to be african and not a leftist, the gross excuse making for the racist expression among the right in the euro-american world.
It is sad.
What is sub human?
You react to dibble, he is very left and he is very annoying but you justify gross racialism, I hope in reaction to him.
And Chief Pedant is a lying racist who plays the polite question game, like in that disgusting ebola conversation.
My point was that in the scenario you’ve set up you appear to have this person go through a change; first believing that blacks are subhuman, then looking out on the world and seeing no evidence to support it, and ending up by rejecting their initial belief.
Which is to say that the version of them that believed blacks are subhuman was still very racist, and the new version that treats people fairly isn’t (or, at least, not for that reason). Not that the old version of them that believed that wasn’t, as you’ve suggested, meaningfully racist.
And you probably think if you put your head under the covers, you are invisible, too.
Note I didn’t say “I know they’re a racist”, I said “they are a racist”. Your fictional silent racist is still a racist.
Holding a belief is an action.
And asking the question “Blacks - are they subhuman?” is a racist action in-and-of-itself.
I didn’t say I hate you because you hear voices.
I hate you because you’re a stalkerish racist-lover.
Prove it. Liar.
? Did the voices tell you this one as well? Or have you still not found out what yiffing is? It’s not (necessarily) gay, Ponyboy.
Teddyfucking isn’t a ‘proclivity’, ya perv.
No, it brings up tedium. This thread isn’t to debate your craziness, you lying sack of pro-racist shit. It’s to point and laugh at anyone who can say “Blacks are subhuman” is not a racist statement.
Hmm. Saying “it looks like that thing you just did was racist” is one thing. Saying, based on one action, “you look like a racist” is another thing, it’s far stronger, and is an attack on that person. Unless they’re happy to be though racist, in which case you’re probably wasting your time.
A character assassination is not a good start to a conversation. Pointing out that someone made a one-off mistake - giving them the benefit of the doubt - is far better.
A lot of this has started when people are being called racist not because of any bias on their own part, but because of a perceived lack of caring about the biases of others, usually the police or justice system. There is this assumption on some people’s parts (and I don’t think you’re one of them) that not being sufficiently anti-racist makes one racist. And that is nonsense.
I’m not willing to spend hours and hundreds of posts arguing the point in a Pit thread, but as far as I’m concerned you’re wrong. Racist thoughts = racist. No action required.
The whole mental exercise of “well, how would you ever know if they are racist if they don’t act on it?” is way too philosophy 101 for me. It’s splitting hairs because in the real world it doesn’t come up. Either we know what they believe or we don’t. But if I found my dead grandmother’s diary and read that she considered the black couple down the street from her mongrel trash but never treated them with anything but politeness, I’d still retroactively brand her a racist. Good on her for having the manners to not act on her ugly thoughts, but at the end of the day it wouldn’t change her to a non-racist.
I don’t think it’s necessarily an “attack”, but even if it is, so what? Just engage and see if they might have a point – if they don’t, or if they’re acting like a jerk, then disengage.
Are you really that certain that you have no biases or bigotries of any kind? Is any challenge to this notion really all that bad? I’m certainly not absolutely certain. I hope I don’t have any such biases/bigotries, and I strive not to, but I recognize that no one can really be sure that they don’t hold any racist or bigoted views. I want, and I welcome, challenges to any views that I have – even (and especially) if someone thinks that they are racist.
The problem, with both Steophan’s original statement, and with the thought experiment proposed by iiandyiiii, is the use of the phrase “blacks are…” As soon as you start saying “blacks are”, whatever comes next is going to be a racist statement, because it will be a statement based on non-existent racial classifications. Now if a scientist chooses a certain population of people, based on a defined set of characteristics, and posits something about the behavior or intelligence of that group, which he then tests and confirms, he can certainly state the correlation between those characteristics and his findings. But he can’t say “blacks are” without being racist.
And racism is a way of thinking that may or may not lead to racist actions. No action is required to be a racist.
And here we go again. Thanks for proving beyond all doubt that you’re a bigot.
You have no interest in actually discussing this, or any other, subject. With anyone. You have formed opinions that are not based in anything, literally based on nothing as I showed earlier, and you have no interest in challenging them.
Look at your posts in this thread, compared with everyone else’s. Every other post, even (in fact, especially) those that strongly disagree with me have reasoning and though behind them. You, on the other hand, have nothing but lies, insults, prejudice and paranoia. You’re not even interesting any more, you’re a sad, pathetic parody. Not that I imagine you’ll care, but I’m done with you.
I almost certainly do have several, like most people. Some of them I’m aware of, and will try not to act on. Whether there are any I’m not aware of is, well, unanswerable by me by definition.
A challenge to a particular view, or set of views, is one thing, a challenge to the person’s entire character is another. And that’s what happens when you call someone racist - you are saying that a defining part of their character. Something you don’t do when you call out particular actions.