Stick and carrot incentive motivates certain behaviors: Why?

Great Debates
1

For the purpose of this question I arbitrarily divide human behaviors into two categories: those which we undertake without any subjective reward or punishment and those that when undertaken, produce pleasurable or aversive sensations. Examples of the former are blood pressure maintenance and digestion. Positive examples of the latter are sexual desire and food seeking, negative examples are pain avoidance and nausea.

It’s fascinating that our brains use persuasion to make us act properly. Why reward us at all? I have many unanswered questions regarding these internal incentives.

[list][li] What is the fundamental difference between behaviors that get rewarded or punished versus incentive neutral behaviors? Partly, I think the complexity of the required response may play some role in this determination. If a behavior must be highly adaptive, and require the input and integration of many sensory channels, is this better handled via internal incentives? Or perhaps, internal incentive is essential to learning.[/li]
I know someone will point out that the incentive neutral behaviors are handled by the autonomic division of the nervous system. An interesting feature of incentive mediated behaviors, however, is that automatic (and in the case of nausea and mating-autonomic) reflexes do indeed participate in the behavior
[li] Where in evolution did incentive mediated behavior develop? This is a toughie, I think, since we lack a first-hand appreciation of the internal state of any individual save ourselves. I will allow that my fellow dopers feel similar sensations of pleasure and pain as yours truly, but what about dogs, birds, fish, frogs, sea urchins, coral, sponges, paramecia, staphylococci, and don’t forget about plants and fungi?[/li]
If we knew what incentive mediated behaviors can do that incentive neutral behaviors cannot (without assuming an inherent superiority of the incentive mediated modality, just a different scope), perhaps then we’d have a means to estimate when incentive mediated behaviors appeared. But as I alluded to above, I’m not positive that I understand the differences between the two on a fundamental level.

And finally, on a lighter note, without incentive mediation of behavior, wouldn’t there be an awful lot of poets, painters, and clerics be out of work?

2

Choosybeggar says:

[QUOTE]

[list][li] What is the fundamental difference between behaviors that get rewarded or punished versus incentive neutral behaviors? Partly, I think the complexity of the required response may play some role in this determination. If a behavior must be highly adaptive, and require the input and integration of many sensory channels, is this better handled via internal incentives? Or perhaps, internal incentive is essential to learning. [/li][QUOTE]

Well first of all Pavlov would be quite interested and I think Skinner would most likely scoff. As for the differences between rewarded and punnished behaviors and neutral behaviors, → fundementally there is no conditioning taking place if a behavior is neither rewarded or punished, therefore no need for repettion of the behavior. The complexity of the AQUIRED not necessarily REQUIRED response is directly proportionate to the rate and quality of the reward or punishment, and if the reward is necessary for survival.

I would have to agree that internal incentive is key to the learning process, humans are one of the few animals that sometimes need no incentive to learn a particular behavior or tid-bit of information. However, a new born fawn MUST have incentive to stand immediately after birth so as not to keep itself in danger by staying in the path of a potential predator. This point aside from any instinctual debate.

[QUOTE]

I know someone will point out that the incentive neutral behaviors are handled by the autonomic division of the nervous system. An interesting feature of incentive mediated behaviors, however, is that automatic (and in the case of nausea and mating-autonomic) reflexes do indeed participate in the behavior

[QUOTE]

I would not say that the autonomic division of the nervous system is the primary source for neutral behaviors either. Neutral behaviors only fringe the parasympathetic nervous system, this would be the system where ocularmotor nerves manipulate pupil dialation when a bright light is shined.

And incentive/neutral behaviors do not belong in the sympathetic division of the nervous system either, this system controls things like dilatation of the blood vessels when the outside temperature changes.

However, the division of the nervous system must also include the adrenal medulla, which synthesises cortisols and adrenaline. This would incorporate the OPs incentive/neutral behaviors. Such behaviors like sex drive and fight or flight stimuli.

[QUOTE]

[li] Where in evolution did incentive mediated behavior develop? This is a toughie, I think, since we lack a first-hand appreciation of the internal state of any individual save ourselves. I will allow that my fellow dopers feel similar sensations of pleasure and pain as yours truly, but what about dogs, birds, fish, frogs, sea urchins, coral, sponges, paramecia, staphylococci, and don’t forget about plants and fungi? [/li][QUOTE]

I can only surmise that incentive mediated behaviors developed when context and reasoning became crucial in the survival response. and in time the recognising of context and the idea of reasoning for survival would automatically adjust to fit for the development of survial instincts and responses, inturn getting encoded on the human DNA. ??? not really my field.

yes :slight_smile:

3

**
Phl, you know that by reward, I was referring to activation of the brain’s pleasure center and that by punishment, I meant activation of pain sensation or the vomiting center. I wasn’t talkin’ bout no behaviorist giving crackers to a rat or an ex-Genesis vocalist that likes to Shock the Monkey. Re-reading your post, I think you do understand, I just want to make sure it’s clear to anyone else.

The conditioning observed by behaviorists is an offshoot of the conditioning we are already subjected to by our own minds. What I wonder is why does our brain (not Pavlov or Skinner) reward us (pleasure center activation) for being good apes and punish us (pain sensation) for misbehaving?

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I notice that both of the examples of neutral activities are involuntary. Can you give an example of neutral voluntary action?

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choosybeggar wrote:

Oh! When you said “blood pressure maintenance”, I thought you were referring to the “behavior” of making a deliberate effort to go to a doctor and get your blood pressure checked every so often. I was thinking, “Yeah, that behavior might seem like there’s no reward associated with it, but in actuality the person engaging in that behavior has probably convinced himself that bad things might happen if he doesn’t do it.” No wonder I was confused!

By “blood pressure maintenance”, you mean the body’s automatic ability to maintain a useful blood pressure, and to respond with increased blood pressure (via a faster heart rate) whenever more oxygen is needed in the muscle tissue. Um, right?

6

I have a difficult time defining neutral voluntary action. The are lots of things we do that don’t promote the euphoria of sex or the pain of putting a hand into a flame, but ruling out any element of reward or punishment isn’t easy. Take the case of pacing secondary to frustration. It’s voluntary, one could stop if one so desired. And there’s no clear (to me) incentive to pace. But is pacing incentive neutral?

I have considered that even these involunatry, neutral behaviors are mediated by incentive, but that perception of the incentive is beneath the level of consciousness. If so, then I’d conclude that all behavior is mediated by incentive, but still be left with the quandry of why incentive is necessary to do the job.

Perhaps, incentive is an interpretation by the consciousness. Thereby, the creation of a behavior is synonymous with incentive-mediation. However, the perception of incentive is impossible without a consciousness.

Yup. Sorry if I was unclear.

7

Hmmm . . . it seems like we’re imparting value judgement to something value-neutral, unless I’m mistaking your use of the words “reward” and “punishment.” Activation of the pain sensation or vomiting center, after all, help keep us from getting injured or poisoned, which I would consider “reward”; whereas smoking crack will activate your pleasure center, but considering the overall negative health effects, would that really be considered “reward”?

8

Well to answer the question posed in your (Choosybeggar) response to my post… here you go
Q
[What I wonder is why does our brain (not Pavlov or Skinner) reward us (pleasure center activation) for being good apes and punish us (pain sensation) for misbehaving?]

If you have access to a cognitive processes book you may want to look up ‘pleasure centers and adverse response centers’ as related to intrinsic and extrinsic responses.
Intrinsically motivated behaviors there is no apparent reward except with the activity itself(so our brain relates this with NO survial instinct, therefore, ‘pleasure center’ activation is only related to the activity). Extrinsic motivation occurs when an activity is motivated by incentives not inherent in the task( the ‘pleasure center’ is activated by a reward, and the activity only happens because of the incentive of the reward).

Ergo, [rewarding us for being good apes] comes from (and this is VERY BASIC) our inherent survival instinct of keeping our biological machines ‘our bodies’ alive to continue onto the next generation.

and Punishing us for ‘misbehaving’ stems from us being required to LEARN from the mistakes we make. Cognitively if we never learned from our mistakes, our race as a whole would not have survived. [look at whats happening to Bush]

One last thing, your notion that our brain rewards and punishes is not separate from a stimulas response-based cognitive process, what was discussed earlier about the sympathetic and parasympathetic nervous system stems from our Evolutionary response being honed and sharpened over the millenia.

I hope I was a little clearer, and I hope there is no confusion about monkeys and crackers… :slight_smile:

9

By reward I mean an evoked reponse that reinforces a behavior. Such a response should by general consensus, “feel good.” Punishment is a response that extinguishes a behavior and by consensus, “feels bad.”

I’m glad you bring up the neurophysiology of addiction, though. It highlights the short-sightedness of motivated behaviors. A behavior that in the long term is decidedly maladaptive, is in this case reinforced by stimulation of the pleasure center. A similar mechanism likely comes into play in the setting of obesity as well, where reinforcement of food seeking behavior (food tastes good, a full stomach feels good) overwhelms the ability to maintain caloric balance.

I’ll even go on record here as stating that IMHO, the subjective motivations created in our heads very often overwhelm reason. And as a corollary, that decision making is biased toward short-term gain.

I hope not to get off the main topic, however, which what role the subjective component plays in behavior? Is it possible to internally create motivation without reward or punishment? Is the subjective component an intrinsic “side effect” of consciousness? Is our nervous system’s solution to the problem of creating adaptive behavior only one of many? And how did this system arise?

[Dr. Ruth voice]If it feels good, do it[/Dr Ruth voice]

10

The error you make is in thinking of reward (or punishment) in binary terms: on/off, pleasurable/unpleasant.

The purpose of emotions–the reason we have them–is that they provide us with an exquisitely fine assessment system (so much so that language and language-dependent conscious thought are awkward and klunky in comparison).

11

[Quote]
Is it possible to internally create motivation without reward or punishment?

[Quote]

I have to say OF COURSE it is. Lets pretend you are sitting in a lecture hall and you are the prof. ok you pose a challenging question and you have a lecture hall full of students looking at you. The student who motivates themself to put thier hand up is not receiving any reward or punishment, yet they are expressing motivation. Not just the fine motor movements or for that matter an intrinsic or extrinsic action, they receive no reward or punishment. I am sure they are better examples out there but with my limited time in front of my computer right now this is the best one I can come up with.

Also briefly, I have to agree with AHunter3 You can not think of reward/punishment in binary terms, there is not black and white for these.
Do you have access to a cognitive processes text either Bandura or Bechtel? If so you will be able to find all of your answers in there under Biological models of behavior, or motivational response to stimuli ‘model’ .

12

I represented evoked responses in a binary fashion for simplicity’s sake. We could discuss the evoked response following perception of the color orange and its influence on behavior, but in this case, the nature of the internal response and the expressed behavior is difficult to categorize. Therefore, in such a case, it’s difficult to clearly describe motivation. I understand that many such cases exist, but fail to see how their existence undermines the OP.

I disagree that no reward or punishment is received in this case. The nature of the reward is complex compared to the examples I mentioned, but present. Don’t you think increasing one’s standing among one’s peers and seniors has an adaptive function? Isn’t there a pleasurable sensation from a job well done under these circumstances?

I’ll look for it in my school’s library. But just between you and me, I get more pleasure from pulling this stuff out of my ass.:smiley:

13

I think what the OP is getting at is why can’t we be “hard wired” to do what we now do for pleasure or to avoid pain? I’ve injured myself more than enough times to say (to the injured area) “Enough already! I get the point, don’t do that again, and be careful until it heals.” The pain prevents us from doing too much damage to ourselves, the way fear does also, but couldn’t we just be hardwired not to hurt ourselves without having to think of it?

I pick up a hot item, and it hurts so I let go. Why can’t I be “pre-programmed” (for want of a better term) to let go of hot objects? Why do I have to feel pain to do it?

Your body knows to keep you breathing (when you aren’t even conscious of it) even though you have some conscious control of it (up to a point). Why can’t your body do the same thing for food getting behaviour, or injury avoidance?

[quote]

[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by Phlosphr *

[Quote]
Is it possible to internally create motivation without reward or punishment?

14

Thanks Posterchild, I am new to this forum. A collegue told me about this and I remember hearing something about it years ago, before this was on the internet. I really enjoy these debates. As for all those quotes…I guess I should have previewed first. As for the OP I am going to post a new thread about the mammalian dive reflex that may answer some questions. But I do not want to ‘hijack’ this thread by discussing it now.

I do believe that the OP has a good grasp of what they are trying to discuss. However to fully understand the workings of the consious and unconsious nervous sytems one must not consider things as black and white as they are portrayed above. Thanks again for the advise posterchild…:slight_smile:

15

Hey Phl,
I enjoy these debates also. (And I learned a lot from clicking the “quote” option under a post with cool formatting.)

I don’t think pleasure/pain, black/white is necessary to the discussion. (Though it is an interesting side topic.) The question, as I see it, is why motivate behavior rather than make it automatic? When we pick up a hot object, it’s a reflex to let go. We don’t have to be “motivated,” or think, to do it.

I think it wouldn’t be too difficult to narrow down where motivated behavior occured, evolution-wise. Motivated behavior can be modified or used to change behavior. Mammals generally seem to have it. Insects don’t. It’s a start. :slight_smile:

PC

16

Just read this profile of Christof Koch, a neurophysiologist and director of the computation and neural systems program at Caltech. The entire article is available at Scientific American.

I better wrap my head in aluminum foil before he steals the rest of my ideas.:wink: