Stirling's Draka vs. Turtledove's Lizards?

Cafe Society
1

Inspired by a recent thread, I’ve got a new matchup pairing: the Domination of the Draka vs. Harry Turtledove’s The Race (aka “The Lizards”).

(Well, strictly speaking, this would be “the Lizards vs. the Earth of the Draka Domination timeline,” but hey…)

You can already imagine the setup: the Lizard invasion fleet arrives in Earth orbit from Tau Ceti in December, 1941. I unfortunately don’t have exact details on their number, but it’s probably fairly sizable, though not overwhelming (the follow-on colonization fleet 20 years later numbered 60 million civilian aliens, for what it’s worth). Tech level: comparable to early 21st-century Earth (though it took them a long time to get to that level—they discovered nuclear fission about 20,000 years ago).

They’re shocked to find, not a planet covered by iron-age savages, but an industrial world at war: The Third Reich has conquered much of Europe, from the Atlantic to the Urals, and the Japanese Empire stretches from China and Siberia in the West, to the overrun U.S. states of Hawaii and Panama to the East (no doubt aided by the destruction of the U.S. fleet at Pearl Harbor on Dec 3).

Holding Africa, Italy, and a great swath of Asia, however, are everyone’s favorite slaver supermen, the Domination of the Draka. Technological level…eh, roughly on par with late 20th century Earth, more or less (no transistors, no in-service jet engines, still researching nukes). Their armed forces number 14,000,000 (10,700,000 under arms—4,200,000 Citizen Force soldiers, 6,500,000 Janissaries—and 3,000,000 non-combat serf (slave) auxiluries).

Both of these major powers have one major objective: conquer Earth. To say nothing of the rest of the world’s nations.

So, fellow [del]geeks[/del] speculative fiction wargamers, I ask you: who will win? What would YOU do if you were the Fleetlord, or the Archon?

2

Given that the Race couldn’t even completely conquer a planet of non-Draka humans, I’d have to say the Draka would take it. Much as it pains me to admit it - god, I fucking hate the Draka.

3

I always thought the basic wargaming proposition in Turtledove’s WorldWar series was “What would happen if the world of 1942 faced the military equipment of the year 2000. Difficulty: the more advanced side has limited resources. Difficulty 2: The more advanced side will not use atomic weapons against hard targets until the less advanced side introduces them into play.”

There’s never any doubt that, if The Race had either unlimited equipment and troops they would have stomped the world flat. Also, had they wished to use their nuclear stockpile humanity would have lost quickly. Given those limitations what would occur?

One of the most interesting things about Turtledove’s series is the fact that The Race is simply composed of better, more rational, more compassionate beings than humanity. Other than the unfortunate goal of conquest they’d make better allies, neighbors, and partners than any two human nations ever could.

The smart money’s on the Draka, I suppose.

4

Given that I can’t stand either series (never liked the Draka and hated WorldWar ever since Turtledove turned Yeager into a traitor) my fondest wish would be for them to wipe each other out completely.

5

Really? Yeager acted with integrity. Why do you deem him a “traitor”.

6

:rolleyes: When your planet is being invaded by aliens, and your government strikes at them secretly to avoid reprisals, it’s not “acting with integrity” to inform on your own people to the invading enemy and knowingly cause one of your own cities to be wiped out via a nuclear strike. It’s being a traitor to your country and to the human race.
He should have been summarily executed.

7

I strongly disagree with that. I mean, there’s the whole thing where they forced people into sex slavery to get information on human reproduction and then stole the ensuing children. Not to mention the whole imperial conquest thing.

They aren’t as bad as the Nazis, sure, but they did enslave the majority of humanity.

8

Strictly speaking, isn’t this one in error? I mean, they used at least one (I think it was a few) high-atmospheric nuke before landing ground forces to try and disable human systems with EMP (mostly a failure—vacuum tubes and all.), and did nuke Washington and Berlin to try and encourage a human surrender, long before the humans developed The Bomb on their own.

In fact, wasn’t the primary reason they were hesitant to use nukes was that they were loathe to destroy cities and infrastructure (or useful land) that could be handy for the colonial regime?

9

In part. But another factor was that they had run low on nuclear weapons. Their main nuclear arsenal had been in a ship that was destroyed by a German attack.

10

Since Draka advantages appear by magic whenever they need them, they’d simply just have whatever they needed to beat the race.

11

Right - I remember that everyone was going for the radioactive wasteland in Ukraine (?). Skorzeny and company from Germany and whatnot. I remember the Russians got the lions share of the material, but were grossly inefficient with the weapon they constructed.

12

True, but the decimation of their nuclear arsenal is not a starting condition of the scenario, nor is it a foregone conclusion of any military action between Lizard and Human forces.

P.S.—Remember the name of the town in Ukraine that the nuke-carrying ship got waxed near? :wink:

13

In Turteldove’s novels, the warring Earth powers put aside their differences for the moment and join forces against the Lizards; no major state allies itself with the Lizards though some individuals and factions collaborate with them. I expect it would be the same in the Domination timeline, but the humans could put up a better fight because humanity would have a united, industrialized, militarized Africa on its side instead of a continent of underdeveloped colonies. Discontented serfs in the Domination might be tempted to see the Lizards as potential allies in a revolt, but the Security Directorate has ways and ways of nipping that sort of thing in the bud.

14

Except:

  1. It was a civilian colony transport, not a millitary target
  2. The war was over at that point, and the Race and the US were at peace.

So what about when your government deliberatley destroys a ship full of civillians of a nation they’re not at war with?

15

That’s certainly distasteful conduct - but even if Yeager didn’t know exactly how the Lizards would respond, he had to know they would retaliate, and harshly. His disclosure cost human civilian lives - it was inexcusable. I don’t believe in the death penalty, but I’d be all for sending him to the Hague on charges of crimes against humanity. :smiley:

16

When you’ve been conquered and the enemy is shipping its colonists to occupy your home, the war isn’t over and you aren’t at peace—you’re simply conquered.
And the fact is, no matter whether Yeager felt that what his government did was wrong, his actions resulted in the death of hundreds of thousands of his fellow humans. He was a traitor to the human race in the face of a violent alien invasion that had already killed hundreds of thousands of humans.

17

The United States hadn’t been conquered, though. If I remember correctly, the Race was occupying Africa, China, Australia, and parts of South America. The US had been at peace with the Race for about 20 years.

And, if Yeager’s actions resulted in the death of hundreds of thousands of humans, then the US’s action resulted in the death of hundreds of thousands of the Race on that colony transport. If you’re going to condemn the one, don’t you have to condemn the other?

18

Nope. Not on the same playing field. I am a human. My sympathies lay with humans. Other species on other planets can take care of themselves and not come here if they don’t want to get hurt.

19

Not to be a dick, but I’d swear you just justified 9/11… :dubious:

20

They’re certainly not human, but they are people, and like Jonathan Chance said, better people than a lot of humans. The killing of one of them is no less murder than the killing of a human being.