While I don’t consider WhyNot’s concerns terribly unreasonable, there is good counter-evidence as noted by preceding posters.
The adults may also get good and sick. As you mentioned, adult chickenpox tends to be more severe than the childhood variety, with worse rash, fevers and potential complications like varicella pneumonia. These risks are enhanced in immunosuppressed adults (for instance, those with HIV and on immunosuppressive drugs, i.e. chemotherapy). This relates to part of the objections I have to the idea of “chickenpox parties”, where parents deliberately seek to get their kids infected.
“Primary maternal chickenpox infection during the first 20 weeks of gestation may also rarely produce the congenital varicella syndrome, which is characterized by limb hypoplasia, muscular atrophy, skin scarring, cortical atrophy, microcephaly, cataract formation, and rudimentary digits”
Much better in my view to get the vaccine in childhood, with shingles vaccine later on (having had chickenpox in childhood (not fun), I don’t need a case of shingles in late adulthood).
Yes, that’s exactly it. That’s the motivation behind a lot of conspiracy theories too. But in this case horrible random medical stuff can happen to your kids and you have no control over it, it just happens. That has to be horrifying as a parent. So you invent a way to take control over the issue so you feel like you’re doing your best as a parent and protecting your child. Ironically you’re doing the opposite.
Oh, for sure. I’m not saying I would make the same choices as WhyNot (which I haven’t), I’m just saying that I think there’s something else at play other than “Vaccines are the tool of Big Pharma!”
Yes, exactly. And I think it’s important for some of us “soft antivaxxers” to communicate our fears and ignorances, so the ones we actually have can be addressed, not the ones that anti-antivaxxers falsely attribute to us.
There is also a risk of encouraging anti-vax behavior in over downplaying the risks of vaccines themselves. A person I work with had a son die due to a (admittedly rare) vaccine reaction about 20 years ago. I have no personal knowledge of what he was told or signed at the time, but he now says that the doctor told him there was no risk and the vaccine is perfectly safe. Now, he has a 3 year old daughter who is not vaccinated at all. He at least is keeping her out of school and away from other children, but for him it seems worth the risk after losing his son.
I personally think everyone should be told exactly what the risks are with every vaccine and what the risks are of not getting the vaccine. This is something that should be taught in high school and explained to expecting parents by the OB/GYN.
While I think the anti-vaccination people are wrong, I am surprised by the sheer amount of vitriol directed at them. I think we can safely assume that they are misinformed, rather than malicious. Therefore, without giving succor to the anti-vax advocates, we can condemn the evil of the pharmaceutical industry for providing the basis for such conspiracy theories. If they did not corrupt research and try to bribe and mislead patients and doctors, this would not be happening.
They are actively campaigning to harm and kill people, especially children. They are deliberately ignorant (research which proves no connection is ignored, this is a willful choice). They deserve more vitriol.
Blaming this on the pharmaceutical companies is fucking retarded. If anything, vaccines are the nicest fucking things they do - they barely make a profit on them and they probably save as many lives as anything else they do.
Regardless of where you place the blame for the ignorance or misinformation out there, people who choose not to vaccinate themselves or their children place others at risk, even others who have chosen vaccination. My daughter, at almost 6 months, is current on all of her vaccinations. However, she is still at risk for pertussis, because she is not yet fully vaccinated against it. She is at risk for pneumonia, convulsions, seizure disorders, brain damage, cerebral hemorrhage, and DEATH as a result of pertussis. Small children, immunocompromised individuals, and those who (medically) can’t tolerate vaccines are absolutely dependent on so-called “herd immunity” to protect them against such illnesses. We have the technology to provide this. The risks of this technology are demonstrably very low, and the benefits are quite high. Yet there are current large outbreaks of pertussis, thanks largely to the anti-vax movement (IMHO, YMMV, etc.)
That’s why the vitriol is there: I vaccinate my child. She rides in her rear-facing car seat. My blinds don’t have cords. Her baby swing has a three-point harness. I do everything within my power to ensure that I raise her to a healthy adulthood, yet her health may depend on someone who chooses not to vaccinate.
I feel the same way about someone who fires a celebratory shotgun blast into the air at the dawn of the new year (for example): You may mean no harm to anyone, and you may get lucky and NOT harm anyone. But you still risk harming or killing innocent strangers, thanks to your sheer stupidity/ignorance.
I think you have a few misconceptions of your own - anti-vaxxers get their information from impeccable sources like Jenny McCarthy and Oprah*. There was big news recently that the former doctor who prompted people like Jenny McCarthy was completely exposed as a fraud and had his license to practice medicine revoked. In spite of this pioneer in the field of anti-vaccination being exposed as a total fraud, and just about every doctor in the world saying that autism is not being caused by vaccinations, anti-vaxxers continue in their misguided beliefs. It’s getting to the point that anti-vaxxers are starting to look like Flat Earthers - no amount of proof is enough for them. This is taking ignorance to new and exciting heights.
I don’t have any particular love for Big Pharma, and I don’t think their business practices are all that warm and fuzzy, but what they love are people who are on medication for life, not a series of three jabs in the arm and done.
The anti-vaxxers, whatever their motivations, are endangering all of us by breaking down herd immunity. If they can find the time to watch Jenny McCarthy on Oprah, they can find the time to get a better source of information and not take unnecessary risks with MY health.
I just find it surprising that an equal or greater amount of rage is not directed at entities that are actually malevolent, rather than merely foolish.
I have not heard of this tradition, but that is fucking nuts.
I’ve perused enough SDMB threads about this to be aware of the initial fraudulent article and the subsequent craziness and the promotion by celebs.
You are correct that vaccines are generally not a profitable enterprise. However, in the minds of ordinary people, vaccines are a form of medication, and medications are the products of pharmaceutical companies.
And I’m not saying that these people should not be subject to criticism, but I do think that actively knowingly doing harmful things is worse than unknowingly* doing harmful things.
*even if that cluelessness stems from being black-hole dense
I get what you’re saying, but I’m not sure I agree with it (is that Canadian enough for ya? ) - it seems at this point that these people are going out of their way to not be informed. I’m actually a little baffled by their responses myself - what are they looking for, complete, 100% uniform consensus by the medical profession that vaccines do not cause autism? Cause they’re damned near getting that now.
Which actively malevolent agencies are you talking about? I have ire to spread around - really - but I’m not sure what you’re getting at here…
It IS nuts (which was kind of my point,) and not unheard-of in some places, including the Straight Dope: Cecil Speaks. But yes, there are people who do this very thing, with no apparent understanding of the physics involved. When someone is caught doing this sort of thing, should they plead “but I never took a physics class” to the judge and jury? IMHO, regardless of their ignorance, they are at least guilty of criminal negligence if this behavior results in another’s injury. Draw whatever parallels you will here.
Such as who? The rage directed at anti-vaxxers is pretty well spread but it is hard to tell who is just ignorant and who is just outright lying, self-serving and malevolent. The parent who listens to Jenny and causes risk for their child and other child deserves scorn if for no other reason than to shame them into taking the right action.
On the other hand, I have seen much scorn against some of the anti-vax leaders and for very good reasons. These are the people who out-and-out lie, threaten, and are frankly physically dangerous to anyone who might disagree with them. Recently when a child died of pertussis due to a lowered herd vaccination rate several anti-vaxxers started a campaign of harassment, intimidation, and smearing of the family. It was sickening. Read this transcript and tell me why we should not be angry:
This is just the tip of the iceberg. The most vicious people on the web (and often in real-life) are anti-vaxxers. Steven Novella has described them as worse than any other woo he has to deal with. If counter their claims with logic and sense they often come back with smears and threats - and that is just from the ignorant ones. After a while you get tired of giving people who think they are protecting children but are actually killing them any slack and you start to fight back.
Nitpick, I remember that thread and I’m pretty sure you’re describing my post since I’m the only one who said anything close to what you’re claiming, but you might want to go read it again.
For the record:
My son was NOT ABLE to have the full DPT vaccination series due to allergy issues, our pediatrician advised against it after the first shot.
And yes, he did get whooping cough a few years later at summer camp even though a full immunization record was mandatory for enrollment.
But please don’t paint me as an anonymous antivax nut just for your own posting pleasure.
This is absolutely the worst issue with which to spring into an attack on Big Pharma. Really. These companies have done nothing to encourage the crazies and have put effort into exposing the original corrupt doctor as a fraud. The product in question is one of their least profitable sectors, effectively a loss leader. By all means, rant about Big Pharma, but not over this issue. It’ll only make your point weaker.
I appreciate that fact. Like I said, this is purely an *indirect *effect of pharma, not intentional because vaccines are highly unprofitable. But it is an effect nevertheless.
) - it seems at this point that these people are going out of their way to not be informed. I’m actually a little baffled by their responses myself - what are they looking for, complete, 100% uniform consensus by the medical profession that vaccines do not cause autism? Cause they’re damned near getting that now.