Stoplight/Walk signal question. Need answer fast-ish.

[Cheesesteak]

@nelliebly

He said the idea isn’t getting pedestrians that far across but getting them well into the crosswalk so that drivers don’t try to beat them to the punch.

My town did this with a troublesome crosswalk. It really helps. The extra few seconds puts people pretty far along, and drivers aren’t edging to turn quite as aggressively.

Especially if the pedestrian traffic isn’t like NYC, the few seconds gives the driver a “the pedestrians are almost through” feel when the car light turns green. Even though you wait the same amount of time, it doesn’t feel as long. You might even wait less time if the walkers can confidently cross without fear of being run down.

[nelliebly]

@jjakucyk

Giving pedestrians a head start doesn’t mean the walk signal is shorter, it just gets them out into the intersection before drivers get their green light, so there’s less of an “I didn’t see them” issue. Like you said. So old people or kids or whatever are irrelevant.

It’s an easy implementation assuming the signal controller can handle the programming. A “turning vehicles yield to pedestrians” sign would be appropriate too. Also just to be sure, the lights for traffic turning across the crosswalk are green balls, not green arrows, right? I have seen that mistake made before, when drivers were given a green right arrow that also crossed a pedestrian walk signal. That’s a big no-no.

Good points. I’m really not sure how much it’s an “I didn’t see them” issue and how much is people resenting the wait while pedestrians cross. It’s a single left-turn lane turning onto two southbound lanes. Drivers will sometimes turn left even with pedestrians in the crosswalk, thinking they can get onto the lane behind or ahead of them. Of course, that’s illegal. Doesn’t stop 'em, though.

There are both a green ball and green arrows. I mentioned the sign, as was suggested up-thread. He didn’t seem too enthused and said that’s the law anyway, and drivers know that. :rolleyes: He thinks aggressive driving and inattentive drivers are the main issues. He also said if the engineers find the delayed signal would put pedestrians in more danger, they’ll come up with an alternative.

@md2000

If he’s going to do that, delay the green, I’d suggest moving the crosswalk to the right-turn side. (Assuming a lot of the pedestrians, especially the “problem” ones, are leaving the shopping center too). There’s a lot less urgency in turning right, you don’t have to cross several lanes of cross traffic, and the pedestrians with the head start are effectively blocking the way already, don’t have to wait for them to cross a couple of lanes going the other way, no race to beat them.

(And in that case, the left arrow can be green while the right is still red, thus speeding left turn traffic even more.) Plus I assume your locale has right turn on red, so there is a chance some right-turn drivers will still be able to go during red lights.

Yep, there’s right turn on red. Hard to explain, but there are visibility issues to the right on one side of the street embankment with stores above plus shrubs and trees. It’s another issue.

[AlsoNamedBort]

@nelliebly

There are both a green ball and green arrows.

Do the green arrows come on at the same time as the walk signal? That seems to be the problem to me. I think the default assumption is

1. Solid green light = unprotected turn = parallel crosswalks will have a walk signal
2. Green arrow = protected turn = parallel crosswalks won’t have a walk signal

While you always need to be aware of pedestrians while driving, I would expect to see one crossing if I have an arrow.

[Tired_and_Cranky]

@AlsoNamedBort

Do the green arrows come on at the same time as the walk signal? That seems to be the problem to me. I think the default assumption is

1. Solid green light = unprotected turn = parallel crosswalks will have a walk signal
2. Green arrow = protected turn = parallel crosswalks won’t have a walk signal

While you always need to be aware of pedestrians while driving, I would expect to see one crossing if I have an arrow.

I didn’t pick up on that from the OP but you are correct that this is a problem. Green arrows that direct traffic through crosswalks when pedestrians have a walk signal conflict with the Manual on Uniform Traffic Control Devices Sec. 4D.05.F (pdf).

A steady GREEN ARROW signal indication:

1. Shall be displayed only to allow vehicular movements, in the direction indicated, that are not in conflict with other vehicles moving on a green or yellow signal indication and are not in conflict with pedestrians crossing in compliance with a WALKING PERSON (symbolizing WALK) or flashing UPRAISED HAND (symbolizing DONT WALK) signal indication. Vehicles departing in the same direction shall not be considered in conflict if, for each turn lane with moving traffic, there is a separate departing lane, and pavement markings or raised channelization clearly indicate which departure lane to use.
2. Shall be displayed on a signal face that controls a left-turn movement when said movement is not in conflict with other vehicles moving on a green or yellow signal indication (except for the situation regarding U-turns provided in Paragraph 4) and is not in conflict with pedestrians crossing in compliance with a WALKING PERSON (symbolizing WALK) or flashing UPRAISED HAND (symbolizing DONT WALK) signal indication. Vehicles departing in the same direction shall not be considered in conflict if, for each turn lane with moving traffic, there is a separate departing lane, and pavement markings or raised channelization clearly indicate
   which departure lane to use.
3. Shall not be required on the stem of a T-intersection or for turns from a one-way street.

[jjakucyk]

Can we get the actual location so we can look it up ourselves?