Straight from the horse's mouth... origin?

[Hermitian]

I’ve heard this phrase before and have wondered about its origin. I have searched for information on the internet, but so far the journey has been fruitless. Any ideas?

[Khadaji]

Here is a WAG: It has to do with trying to sell a horse can claiming it is younger than it is. One way to tell a horse’s age is by looking at its teeth.

However, bear in mind that this is a WAG.

[Futile_Gesture]

It’s a betting phrase; a tip on a horse race that is in the know, on the inside. i.e. the information is as good as direct from the source that knows best, the horse itself.

[Bromley]

MY WAG is the same a Khadaji’s, backed up by the similar saying, “Don’t look a gift horse in the mouth.”

Only cite that I can find using the idiom, “etymology” and Google was this book description of What you say which agrees with us:

It is a complete revision of a popular earlier work and focuses in particular on how words have taken on new meanings over time. Why You Say It explains that an impatient person will “jump the gun” like an athlete who beats the starter’s signal at the beginning of the race; that one who “knows the ropes” is experienced like a sailor who masters the rigging that controls a sailing ship; that one who “barges in” bursts into a situation much like a river barge that is difficult to stop or change direction; and that one who wants the absolute truth needs to get it “straight from the horse’s mouth” like a potential buyer who learns a horse’s age from its teeth.

[Earl_Snake-Hips_Tucker]

@Khadaji

One way to tell a horse’s age is by looking at its teeth.

Maybe, maybe not.

[samclem]

Almost certainly from horse racing.

The earliest form of the phrase, so far, is 1908. Yes–I got it straight from the feed box and it’s right.

The earliest, so far, for the actual phrase you want is P.G. Wodehouse, 1928.

[Bromley]

This guy supports the horse trading origin. Still, I haven’t seen any evidence that he’s definitely correct.

If something is straight from the horse’s mouth it is from a reliable source. This again has to do with looking at teeth to establish age and therefore value; this information is likely to be more accurate than any other, such as that provided by a dishonest horse-trader.

This one also talks of teeth, although it doesn’t specify why these experienced horsepeople are looking at them (same caveat):

Straight from the horse’s mouth - Derived from the sport of horse racing, experienced horsepeople can tell a horse’s age by looking at its teeth. The source of the truth, then, is “straight from the horse’s mouth.”

A potentially more reputable cite is the Old Wives Tales site. It backs up the teeth aspect whilst bringing in the betting one. References are to the Why You Say It book that I mentioned previously and also A Fine Kettle Of Fish.

In the [Straight from the horse’s mouth] saying, which in a way refers to betting on horses, one would try to get a look at a race horse’s teeth. From the pearly whites, the bettor would gain information about the horse.

[snip]

“Straight from the horse’s mouth” apparently has a shorter history. Stated to appear around 1830 but not becoming popular until 1920’s - due to the peak interest in horse races - but not appearing in print until 1928. Who shared the phrase in print? P. G. Wodehouse did in the following sentence: “The prospect of getting the true facts - straight, as it were, from the horse’s mouth - held him fascinated.”

SDSTAFF Ken gets a mention on this message board (for an unrelated expression). Having established that board’s credentials by association, we can probably trust the post by Grendel . Apparently taken from A Hog On Ice & Other Curious Expressions: The Origin & Development Of The Pungent & Colorful Phrases We All Use. A new spin on why you’d want to establish the age.

“Straight from the horse’s mouth…”

Means going to the original source to get the truth of a matter.

Comes from horse racing, and alludes to determining the age of a horse as a way of handicapping a race. A younger horse lacks racing experience, while an older horse is closer to that day when he loses a step, so knowing the age of a horse has importance to the bettor.

Also, the buying and selling of breed and race horses suffers a certain level of chicanery, and it’s a better idea to examine a horse’s teeth to determine age, than to simply trust the seller’s claim. The first pair of permanent teeth on a horse appears at age 2 1/2, the second pair at 3 1/2, and the third pair at about 4 1/2, providing a way to factually determine the age -straight from the horse’s mouth.

[tygerbryght]

@Bromley

… Or is it Grendel??

Also, the buying and selling of breed and race horses suffers a certain level of chicanery, and it’s a better idea to examine a horse’s teeth to determine age, than to simply trust the seller’s claim. The first pair of permanent teeth on a horse appears at age 2 1/2, the second pair at 3 1/2, and the third pair at about 4 1/2, providing a way to factually determine the age -straight from the horse’s mouth.

This is correct, but only half the story. You see, the teeth of horses, like those of many other herbivores, continue to grow throughout their lives. One of the ways that dishonest horse dealers used to try to deceive buyers was by taking a file and filing the horse’s teeth down (shorter).

A knowledgeable person can tell whether the horse has been “bishoped” (one of the 19th century terms for the above procedure) by checking whether the horse’s upper and lower teeth meet when they are brought together. If not, the teeth have been filed.

[Snooooopy]

If you want to know if your gift horse is long in the tooth, you can get the information straight from the horse’s mouth. Then you collapse from an overdose of cliches.

[_Adam]

@Snooooopy

If you want to know if your gift horse is long in the tooth, you can get the information straight from the horse’s mouth. Then you collapse from an overdose of cliches.

I’m sorry I just had to bump this ancient thread because that is too funny to let die^

[JessMagic]

Can you tell how fast a zombie horse will run, just by examining its zombie teeth?

[Northern_Piper]

@samclem

Almost certainly from horse racing.

The earliest form of the phrase, so far, is 1908. Yes–I got it straight from the feed box and it’s right.

The earliest, so far, for the actual phrase you want is P.G. Wodehouse, 1928.

samclem, do you remember which Wodehouse novel or short story?

[aldiboronti]

Sam is in all probability referring to this 1928 cite for the phrase in OED.

1928 Wodehouse in Strand Mag. Aug. 114/1 The prospect of getting the true facts—straight, as it were, from the horse’s mouth—held him‥fascinated.

Checking this Wodehouse bibliography we find that Wodehouse’s story for the August 1928 edition of Strand was The Reverent Wooing of Archibald (the ‘Reverend’ of the bibliography is a misprint for ‘Reverent’ - see the Wikipedia page for the story.)

[Quercus]

@Snooooopy

If you want to know if your gift horse is long in the tooth, you can get the information straight from the horse’s mouth. Then you collapse from an overdose of cliches.

See, you can take a bunch of cliches, but eventually even a tiny one too many will collapse everything, like the straw…