Ultrafilter is right, high protein in and of itself will not go towards building muscle. The body will convert protein into glucose if carbohydrate intake is low. Therefore very little protein will be used to repair muscle tissue if you have low carb intake. The body will use it as glucose as it’s priority, muscle is a luxary.
What I’m confused (and angry) about is this: Calorie intake is not changed. Calorie consumption is increased. Why no weight or fat loss? It’s just not fair.
Are you being a deliberate troll? I’m not going to get into this again; it’s been done elsewhere on SDMB ad infinitum. I will say this: “EXERCISE YOU FAT FUKERS!” is inappropriate for this forum, insulting, and not useful.
I think if I’m interpreting this correctly, the jist of it is just the opposite: fewer calories taken in daily, not an increase in their consumption.
Okay, so it appears as if about 50/50 of the posters state that Atkins, the Zone, etc. are all incredibly amazing and fulfilling, and the other half state that this kind of dieting is deadly.
Take it from this angle, even the folks that are naysayers on these fad diets: if you’re a person who’s entire diet relies upon Snicker’s, Haagen Dazs, McDonald’s, Coca Cola, Frosted Flakes… you get the picture, then even still, isn’t the Atkins or the Zone or whatever you wanna do short of starvation going to be a vast improvement?
If not, then let’s look at it this way: you’re saying cut out the simple sugars, this is something that every Saturday morning health cartoon with that banana cowboy guy used to preach. That, and cutting out saturated fats, excess sodium, msg and cholesterol–basically all the shit that McDonald’s or Snicker’s are made from. So if you cut all that out, and you’re shopping at, say, some local hippie co-op food market for all the breads made with like molasses and organic milk, and you’re buying organic meats and veggies… basically doing the right things for your body, other than that, the only real key is to cut your caloric intake down, do some sit-ups and get out for a jog once in a while?
Hi,
I think thats a fairly good point. If you compare most of these diets, at least omitting the super fad diets (like cabbage soup diets)- but any controlled way of eating where you are paying attention to what you eat and trying to make healthy choices is going to be a good thing. Maybe Atkins isn’t the “best” or the “ideal” for everyone. But what it is is a way people can control their food intake, nutrition and still have a diet they can live with. It should not cause health problems or nutritional problems IF done correctly. What slight potential for health problems there MIGHT be, has to be outweighed by the serious dangers obesity has for everyone, regardless of their current diet or how they got there- being fat kills ya. I am only 30 years old, I was “obese” for two years- the difference in how my body, my knees, etc felt at the end of those two years was terrifying. I felt old and mortal for the first time- how invincible we feel before 30 right ? LOL. Losing weight can only be a benefit- maybe there are “better” ways to get there, but usually I find those who insist there is only one ideal way to lose weight have never had to lose more than 5 or 10 lbs in their lifetime and don’t realize what others struggle through to accomplish good health. One of my very skinny friends told me I was going to have serious problems when I started this diet, and then proceeded to ask me if I ever tried “fasting one day a month” because that helped her get rid of her 1/2 lb love handles. ONE DAY A MONTH? I was 60 lbs overweight- what the hell would that do for me?
I don’t think low carbing is for everyone, but it definitely works for me. I can live with it- and I can certainly live with no longer being obese. I can’t live with being currently overweight either, but I’m on the right track - I expect to be at or near my goal by the end of the year. Not a crash diet- just a healthy way of eating.
Jaime
Started Atkins 12/27/02
185/151/125
I phrased that poorly. What I meant by “consumption” is calories USED. In other words, I have the same basic calorie intake, but am using up more calories through exercise. And it makes no sense that after months of this I am the same weight, same measurements, and so on. Given that I hate doing the exercise it seems futile.
I’m trying to counter the assertion that by continuing to be overweight I’m some sort of fat <expletive deleted>. I resent that statement.
A few things occurred to me to ask the board… since everyone is regarding the proper ways and improper ways to lose weight and get fit for a healthy person, what about for an unhealthy person?
For example, what if you are a woman with polycystic ovarian syndrome, or a man with a thyroid gland problem? What if you are bipolar and taking medications that inherently increase your weight? What if you have heart troubles or liver complications like cirrhosis? What if you’re hypoglycemic or diabetic? There are a whole myriad of complications such as these that will directly effect one’s weight, even on a healthy diet.
I also do not understand how some folks I know can entirely subsist on lousy, fried bar food, a daily intake of five or six stiff drinks, doughnuts and coffee and still stay trim? Would this be accounted for by a high metabolism? I mean, some of these same folks aren’t even all that active, and mostly sit around and watch t.v. or read in their spare time.
Is it possible to change your metabolism and make it faster? I know this is a lot of questions, but the whole scenerio about how to be trim seems so baffling since the same story doesn’t apply to everyone.
You posted this gem before you were warned about insults in GQ this morning. Otherwise you would be gone by now. From this moment forth, if you so much as breathe too loud, you will be banned.
bibliophage
moderator GQ
few points MLS:
1 - you can not be SURE that your intake has not increased. somehow i doubt that you have been counting your calories, or if you have that you were doing it accurately.
2 - personal trainers are mostly concerned with keeping you safe so that they dont have to lose their job if you get hurt. it is my opinion that people working out with personal trainers never work out hard enough, not even close. i have no idea what you’re doing with a trainer for 6 months, i understand a few workouts maybe but didn’t you learn enough to strike out on your own ?
3 - you’re not supposed to hate working out, you’re supposed to love it. perhaps if you worked out hard enough you would see results and gain some appreciation for the process.
vasyachkin:
-
I am quite sure that my food consumption is approximately the same as it was before I started exercising. I certainly haven’t suddenly started eating an extra 900 calories a week.
-
The personal trainer is part of the program available at the gym where I work. I consult her because I have no idea what is the right thing to do to safely meet my goals. It’s not a continuous one-on-one. She shows me how to use the machines, how to do the exercises, and suggests number of reps, minutes on the machine, etc. If I have a question, she’s there to explain, demonstrate, etc. If I didn’t have someone to ask, I would have no idea how to approach the process. I mention that I have this trainer available to indicate that I’m not just going in the gym and hacking around aimlessly.
-
Maybe I’m “supposed” to like exercise, but I don’t. I hate getting all sweaty. I’d much rather do a puzzle, read a book, almost anything. The trainer tries to come up with a variety of things to do, but you still have to do some things for 20 minutes or so. It’s tedious and boring. Who are you to tell me what I’m “supposed” to like and appreciate? I bet there are lots of things that I find enjoyable, interesting and challenging that you hate doing. When was the last time you crocheted a bedspread?
I hope you didn’t mean to be as snide as you sound, with your “perhaps if you worked out hard enough” comment. I work to my capacity every time. My trainer always comments on how hard I am working.
It’s attitudes like yours that tell people like me that our best isn’t good enough, that we are doomed to be failures, and that we might as well give up and be fat.
MLS
It is entirely possible to maintain a constant caloric input, increase caloric output, and not gain/lose any weight. This can happen when you simultaniously build muscle and lose fat.
However, if the scale doesn’t budge, your clothes usually feel loser and the fat calipers show a change in body fat percentage.
But, in reading your posts, you state that the fat calipers are the same, you haven’t lost any weight, and you are fustrated.
My advice would be to stop doing stuff you hate.
My other advice would be that 900 calories a week could be lost in the noise of daily calorie intake fluctuation.
How much do you weigh? I weigh around 245 pounds, each day I have to eat 3050 calories to maintain my weight. That’s a total of 21350 a week. 900 calories is less than 5% of the total (4.2%)
But forget all the calorie stuff, it doesn’t really matter. Have you ever heard of Covert Bailey? He, and I, believe that the amount of calories you burn on your workout don’t really matter. What matters is that you are changing your body’s composition. When you have more lean mass (muscle), your body burns more calories 24 hours a day, every day.
If you want to lose weight by exercising, get prepared to do a lot more than 3 hours a week. You could skip a couple of cokes to remove 900 calories from your weekly intake.
However, if you increase your lean body mass, you increase your Basal Metabolic Rate. If you increase your Basal Metabolic Rate, you increase you calorie burn rate. Covert Bailey suggests that when you are working out you repeat the mantra, “I’m becoming a better butter burner” instead of thinking of the 300 calories you are burning during the exercise.
Covert Bailey also suggests, as I do, that you should find a sport you like, bicycling, hiking, racquetball, rugby, whatever, and do that instead.
Of course that would require a bigger lifestyle change than the gym 3x a week. And this is from me now, I believe that you have to make a big lifestyle change to change your weight. You lived the lifestyle that got you where ever you are, and now you want to go somewhere else, well you have to make changes.
You might get more support from people going through the same thing you are going through. I believe Vasyachkin was trying to show how you might be missing a few things that could explain your situation.
Good Luck
-Sandwriter
Well, thank you, Sandwriter, that was a much more helpful post.
With apologies for further hijacking, there are no sports I like. I have always been a non-athletic type; in my youth I was also rail-thin and it didn’t matter. Now, of course, with the residue of several injuries, plus age and spinal arthritis, it does matter. On doctor’s orders, I cannot do any activities that involve impact. No running, no jumping. The weather hereabouts is not very conducive to outdoor bicycling much of the year. Heat one could deal with, I suppose, but not the snow and ice!
I’ll keep at it for a while longer and hope that eventually I may get the metabolism change you mentioned. The only time within the last couple of decades that I’ve lost weight was when I had lymphocytic colitis and my intestines stopped absorbing nutrients. Obviously a bad way to lose weight. Once that was corrected, I regained everything plus more. I think the ol’ bod has figured out how to be very efficient when it needs to.
Unfortunately, it will be very hard to make the kind of lifestyle change you describe. My 3X a week is about all I can handle right now. When the bones in your spine are crunching together with each step you take, vigorous activity is not that easy. Fortunately, the experts at the gym have found many exercises that don’t involve either impact or being on my feet for a long time. Also, of course, I don’t want to get into one of those extreme diets that drastically cut calories but are impossible to stick to in the long term.
Again, thank you for your insight.
It seems that you haven’t heard from anyone yet regarding weight-loss surgery (WLS), so let me be the first to offer some insight:
I had what is called an “extra-long limb Roux-en-Y” WLS on April 22nd of this year. The surgeon bypassed all but 100 cm of my small intestine and made a stomach pouch about the size of a human thumb.
Nearly 4 months later, I get in around 800 calories a day, and the docs here at the Mayo Clinic tell me to go for about 60 grams of protein and 100 grams of carbohydrates per day. Early on in the post-op diet, there are a lot of pureed and soft foods, but at this point I am phasing out “soft calories” in favor of foods that will keep me feeling full for longer periods of time. Carbonated beverages are pretty much out for me forever, but I don’t have any problems with that, really. Typically my meals for the day include an Atkins “Morning Start” breakfast bar, a mid-morning snack of Genisoy Soy Crisps or lowfat sugarfree yogurt or lowfat cottage cheese, lunch and dinner will be microwave Hormel chili without beans, microwave pasta with the highest protein I can find, Starkist Tuna Creations marinaded tuna fish, some kind of broiled fish, a baked potato, or a broth-based soup with chunks of meat and veggies in it. Once in a while I’ll have some Ritz crackers or pretzels as well. I drink water, Fruit 2 O, and diet Iced Tea mostly.
I exercise in some way every day; early on I was walking and worked up to 3-6 miles per day by the 5 or 6 week mark. Shortly after the 6 week point I started with some light resistance training and playing basketball. Now I take a strength training class (sort of like calisthenics with weights) twice a week and play basketball (usually full-court) 2-3 hours a night on at least three nights a week. I walk on my ‘off’ days.
I take two Flintstones Complete chewable vitamins per day and four Tums Ultra with calcium. My blood tests at the 6 week mark showed that I was getting adequate nutrition at that point in comparison to others that have had the surgery.
I can keep down just about anything I try to eat, but I’m staying pretty conservative with the diet; no high-sugar or high-fat foods, no carbonation, etc.
So far I’ve lost 104 pounds since April 22nd. I’ve gone from a 5X shirt to a 2X, and from a size 60 pant to a size 46 pant. My endurance levels are really great; I can run rings around some kids half my age now (endurance-wise, not quickness-yet) but it’s been slower regaining functional strength for quickness and jumping and so forth…but it’s coming along. I feel great and have had absolutely no problems related to the surgery or the post-op diet. I’m about 80 pounds away from my goal weight now.
WLS is a very serious thing to consider; it is not a quick fix or a magic bullet. I have met people who have ‘defeated’ the surgery by grazing all day long on high calorie “soft” foods and who refuse to exercise. It’s a powerful tool to lose weight, but if you do not commit to using it to help change your lifestyle, it’ll be just another failed diet attempt. I am determined to avoid that fate.
Absolute, total RUBBISH. Rather than post crap on here, why not check your facts first?
In the first two weeks of Atkins you are supposed to eat AT LEAST two and preferably three cups of vegetables a day, preferably leafy green ones. How many people consume this much in their regular, everyday eating?
After the first two weeks, you begin to introduce some fruit, and more vegetables. You get your carbs from vegetables, that’s why you have to eat them. As for avocados: they’re an optional extra in the first two weeks, you don’t even have to eat them.
Agreed. But how many people’s diets normally contain full calcium? I read time and time again doctors urging women to take calcium supplements, because most people don’t get enough in their normal diets.
I was amazed, when entering my Atkins foods on Fitday, to be eating so much Vitamin C. I then found out that pepper/capsicum has THREE TIMES the Vitamin C of citrus fruit.
As the OP specifically asked about the science, I’ll repost what I transcribed in another thread, as it is relevant here. My own thoughts on Atkins is that the people it is really aimed at are long-term, heavily obese people that are heading towards diabetes.
Obesity aside, it’s also my belief (from personal experience) that another major reason Atkins works well is that because your hunger is much reduced, (a) from tasty/rich foods, and (b) because you no longer get blood sugar spikes and lows, you don’t get so tempted to break it. And yes, this does make it a lower calorie diet for many people.
But it’s far easier to stick to 1000 cals on Atkins, feeling full and satisfied, than 1000 cals on a low-fat diet, where very often people crave food all day. So even if the insulin stuff is hogwash, the fact that morbidly obese people can at least stick to a lower calorie diet via Atkins, means it does work.
Regarding istara’s post, fair enough. As far as Atkin’s goes, I’ve just been going off of what friends of mine have said from when they supposedly “did” that diet. If you’re right, then apparently they didn’t do it right.
MLS
Now, with the new information, the issues come a little clearer.
The only other advice I would suggest would be to do some water aerobics or swimming. Seems that would be easier on your bones?
Here in Australia the newspapers are all publishing the CSIRO Total Wellbeing diet. The CSIRO is the peak scientific body in the country and after years of reasearch this is the only diet they have ever endorsed. Their recommended diet was similar to what the low-carb proponents say 34% protein, 20% fat, 46%carbohydrate. All the info including meal plans is at CSIRO.
I think that the point most missed by high carb proponents is that low carb diets are designed to adjust the balance of protein/carbs. No one recommends huge increases in protein intake, rather they advocate reduction in carb intake. They are trying to aim for the “meat and 3 veg” meals of a generation ago. As low fat became the mantra and we increased our intake of rice, pasta, white bread and brakfast cereals without any other adjustments we got fatter. Look at the eating plans linked above. Keep in mind they are for the average woman and explain what you think is unhealthy about this high protein diet.
900 calories per week is 1/2 ounce of fat per day, how sure can anyone be that ones intake did not increase by half ounce per day ?
your fear of sweating is disturbing, ask yourself why. nobody will hold it against you in the gym, as long as you wipe off the equipment after you used it. if you work out at your job, and in the middle of the day then i can see that as a problem. you would either have to be content with taking a shower over there, or get a membership at an outside gym and work out in the evening, after work. the point is, sweating is part of the deal, you have to accept it. the best you can do is work out in well-air-conditioned area, but compromising workout intensity is not an option.
“It’s tedious and boring.”
it seems that you’re a woman. in which case i guess i can’t help you. but for ME, exercise is the most extreme and dangerous thing that i do. even if i hated it for some inexplicable reason, i could never consider it boring.
but women, they never train seriously, after all these years of working out in different gyms i have only seen 2 ( two ) women who train seriously. why that is, i guess i will never know as long as i am a man. one of these ladies at an age of about 50+ dead-lifts slightly more than twice her own weight 
which would be impressive even for a man. but for the rest of the women, the weights they use are PATHETIC by any standard.
thanks for defending me Sandwriter. though i really AM an asshole, cuz i say the truth with only enough sugar-coating that one doesn’t choke on it.
but then, i dont see any other way to do it. a person is perfectly able to lie to oneself. if they dont want the truth they shouldn’t ask questions.
Yes - it’s also very important to note that Atkins allows “liberal” protein but NOT unlimited. The book specifically says:
So whatever Atkins is, it certainly isn’t an unlimited deep-fried steak binge.
The reason I attack Atkins myths is because I believe the diet - like any new eating plan - DOES need proper research. But it needs to be studied on what it actually is, not the myth of what it is: mountains of butter, steak, fat and not a fruit or vegetable in sight.