I’m finding it hard to believe that only black people have to change their speech. Are you saying black people are the only ones who “mispronounce” in the Midwest?
About this “mispronounciation” thing…it’s just an accent thing. Go down to Savannah and you’ll hear everyone pronounce “it” as “iiiiiit”. Native Atlantans–white or black–pronounce “hill” and “heel” the exact same way. No one is confused down there.
Only people who are bold enough to think their way is the right way would be confused.
Midwesterners (particularly of the Indiana/Illionois variety) say “dial” instead of “doll” and “clahset” instead of “closet”. I’d like to think my pronounciations are the “right” way, but if people are able to communicate just fine the Midwestern way, then how can I say it’s “wrong”?
I know the difference between “hill” and “heel” but for the life of me I cannot say “hill” without stretching it out. It doesn’t sound right to my ear. To me, it’s easier saying “heeeeel”. If that makes me wrong, then I don’t wanna be right.
Oh jeez, do I have to explain myself AGAIN? I know this is going to open a whole new can of worms, but here goes:
Suppose you have an apple and an orange, and you were brought up to call them both “apples.” Obviously, you know they’re two different kinds of fruit and know what the difference is, but you refer to them both with the name “apple.” Then you go to journalism school where they try to shove “standard” English down your throat, and some professor teaches you that the one with the pimply rind and segments is called an “orange.” From that day on, you try very very hard not to call this an “apple” - so hard, in fact, that you wind up calling them **both ** “oranges,” and never use the word “apple” again.
I’m simply observing that there are “apple-apple” people and “orange-orange” people, as opposed to “standard” English, which is “apple-orange.”
Does this explain what I’m saying, or does it just confuse things more?
It’s not an apt analogy simply because “orange” and “apple” are totally different words and concepts. Interchanging usage of these words would confuse everyone with a brain.
Perhaps that’s why people can get away with saying “heel” for “hill” and “steel” for “still”. The meaning is clear regardless of how you say it. The meaning would not be clear if I’m calling oranges apples and apples apples.
I think I’ll have to take issue with this. I agree that yes, once you’ve learned a certain phonemic set of rules, then it’s very difficult to hear and pronounce correctly. But honestly, I think that also has a lot to do with innate language ability.
What is the age at which you pass out of this critical period? I took French in high school and my accent was nothing to write home about. But then I majored in it in college and I lived there several times and my accent is now excellent (and I’ve heard this from French people, I’m not just blowing my own horn). I know a lot of Americans who can’t distinguish between the “ou” (oo) sound and the “u” (not possible to type pronunciation) sound in French, and can’t reproduce it accurately. But that doesn’t mean it’s impossible.
Sorry for the slight hijack. Back to the op - I can think of a parallel here with the pet peeve that many of us have…I and me. People used to use “me” for everything, including the subject, and that’s been the target of many an english teacher. So now, instead of being able to distinguish where “I” and “me” are correctly supposed to go, many people just use “I” instead. Oranges and oranges.
Acourse, I was talking about accent, not fluency. That’s a whole nother ball of wax. Mother tongue interferes with fluency and proper word usage all the time.
There’s a wonderful exhibit of photographs from a black photographer from Memphis, who chronicled the Civil Rights movement. He’s 81, and still going strong. There was an article in the paper today, featuring an awesome photo of a woman who got her voter registration card in 1966. She looked absolutely ecstatic.
There are a wide variety of English dialects spoken in various regions of America (not to mention Great Britain, Ireland, Canada, Australia, etc.). D.A.R.E. (the Dictionary of American Regional English, not the kids-against-drugs campaign) details a lot of regional dialectal usages. I recall reading with interest several years ago that the native Californian dialect (now nearing extinction under the pressure of immigration) renders “ten” and “tin” and other words containing short E’s and I’s so close to identically that the sharp listener from elsewhere cannot detect a difference.
In much of America, what is referred to as the Urban Black Dialect has evolved from the past tendencies of (a) urban whites to ghettoize blacks, and (b) urban blacks to keep to themselves, partially in response to (a). The beautiful Old-South drawl of the Eastern Carolinas dialect, thick enough to spread with a knife, is still quite common where I live, though it’s almost never heard in Raleigh, only 25 miles away – and both blacks and whites use it indiscriminately. At the store up the road recently, my purchase came to $13.90, and I would have sworn the clerk said, “There’s ten ninety,” instead of “Thirteen ninety.” (Interestingly, a friend of my wife’s is a black woman in late middle age – a Cary resident born and raised in Boston – and she speaks with an accent you would swear, without seeing her as she speaks, was a classic Kennedy propah Bahstonian.)
I’m white and was born in Mississippi. My mother was born and raised in the smallest of small Mississippi towns, Prairie, Mississippi - as well as my blood aunt and uncles. I say “still” for “steel” – and you would give yourself away as an outsider if you pronounced differently ----- I also say “ceement” (see - ment) for “cement” -
So you think that these people used to pronounce still as steel, but now they pronounce still as steel as a hypercorrection? (Please answer me. I’d like to make sure I have it right.) If so, am I the only one who thinks that doesn’t sound right? I steel can’t find the wheel to live. That doesn’t strike me as something a black or a Midwesterner might say. Maybe Cheech Marin.
I’ve travelled all over the US and for a country that size, although I do notice the difference between East Coast/West Coast/South dialects, they are far less pronounced than in Britain.
I live about 50 miles north of London and speak with a Estuary English/North London dialect.
Glaswegian is almost unintelligable to me…
Geordie (Newcastle upon Tyne)can be as well.
For a country our size there’s an amazing range of dialects…
As for the OP, he’s obviously never listened to Trevor McDonald…*
*Trevor McDonald: Black UK newsreader who speaks the Queen’s English better than the Queen. A national institution. Fab moustache as well.
Here’s a conversation between myself and a old black friend.
AMBOOLANTZ
No, say I, try this…AM
AM
BULE
BULE
LENTZ
LENTZ
(me) ok. good, now put them all together
AMBOOLANTZ
…and we fell on the floor laughing. No one , including my friend, is going to change the way that word comes out of his mouth, and you know what? I wouldn’t have it any other way. It’s what makes this country great, IMHO.
Continuing the hijack, mascaroni, I like that all the English (which is to say British) people I’ve heard say McDonald or McDonald’s say it like “mack” (hat?) instead of “mick” (using the term as a pronunciation guide for Mc…). Also, some words ending in a soft “a” have an audible “er” replacing them. It’s kind of on topic, anyway.
