Student attempts to bully me. Attempt fails.

The BBQ Pit
21

You may well be right about the liberal arts vs engineering thing.

In liberal arts and humanities classes, attendance is generally not taken in large lecture classes. I have a friend who’s a history prof at UT Austin, and some of her lecture classes contain 400-500 students. There’s no way to take attendance in such a class, and if you don’t attend it is simply assmued that you will borrow the notes from someone else.

But, in the humanities, attendance is required whenever classes are held in smaller groups, especially when part or all of the class time is intended for discussion, rather than just the teacher lecturing.

So, while my friend lectures to 400-500 students for two hours a week, for another hour each week those 400-500 students split into groups of 15-20 and attend “sections” led by the professor or, more commonly, by advanced graduate students. Attendance is taken at such classes, because students are meant to do the reading for the week and contribute to class discussion.

Some classes are smaller seminar or mixed lecture/discussion classes. I’m teaching a class like that this semester, with 25 students. The class meets once a week for 2 hours and 45 minutes, and attendance is required of all students. Part of the time is taken up with me lecturing to the students, giving them background on the time period and providing some context within which they can place the reading that they do each week. The rest of the time is, or should be, taken up with class discussion, where the students and i talk about the week’s readings, their significance for the broader themes of the course and, quite often, their relevance to current political or social issues.

Attendance is required not only because we cover in class a lot of material that isn’t directly covered by the readings, but also because student participation in class discussion constitutes 25% of the students’ final grades. Part of any liberal arts or humanities course is helping students learn how to read the material closely, think carefully about it, and then communicate their ideas to other people—not only on paper, but orally also. Often, there are not necessarily “right” and “wrong” answers; instead, understanding is gained through a process of articulating your own position and listening to the arguments of others. I firmly believe that students understand the material better if they contribute to class discussion than if they just sit there and listen to me lecture.

You know, i’m surprised that you’re so surprised by this. After i left school, i did a year of a science degree before deciding to ditch it and go with the humanities. While my mathenatics, biology, chemistry and geology classes all had large lectures, each of those subjects also broke into smaller sections and labs, at which attendance was required. Many of my engineering friends had similar set-ups in their courses. I find it rather surprising (not to mention depressing) that every class you attended was apparently nothing more than a lecture hall filled with 600 students. That’s a pretty dull way to learn, IMO.

22

Well, I have to admit I don’t know a lot about pedagogy in engineering, but did you have any classes where you spent a significant portion of the class period actually … engineering? Practicing the sort of work you were planning to do after you left school? Because I’d say the majority of liberal arts classes operate on this basic model – in French class you speak French; in writing class you write (and critique other people’s writing, and have them critique yours); in English lit class you analyze literature. That may be one reason for the difference.

Assuming you were taking an engineering class where you spent most of the time working on a group project with your classmates, would you have a problem with the class having a strict attendance policy?

23

Well…

If the class was small enough that you’d actually notice my absence (no lecture halls with hundreds of students), and if your experience added to the class (general “your,” I obviously don’t know a thing about your classes!) I was most likely there. I may have been daydreaming during everything but the interesting anecodotes or the stuff that wasn’t from the book, but I was probably there. :wink:

Some of my all-time favorite science and engineering classes were taken at a community college before I transferred to a “real” school (Berkeley). I’ll take a small class at a community college, taught by a crusty old engineer who’s teaching part time, over some weenie who’s entire career has been in academia (the latter seemed WAY more common on the CS side then the traditional engineering side) any day.

24

People are defending this asshole?

Wonders never cease.

25

Campion and NoClue: Good call. Yes, I will alert Security about this.

belladonna: In regard to what Eonwe said, yes, I am a Humanities professor and every one of my colleagues, as far as I know, has an attendance policy in the syllabus. Attendance is required. It does not count for participation; that comes from discussions and questions and reading bits of the book aloud in class. The college catalog states that attendance is required for all classes and that any student may be dropped after nine hours’ worth of unexcused absences before the withdrawal date.
As I mentioned before, Bully actually writes fairly well, at least recently. It’s his chronic and sometimes extreme lateness that’s pulling down his grade.
He can indeed be kicked out of class and even out of the school. I’m just waiting to see what he’ll do. He gets the opportunity to hang himself. Then he’ll out for two meetings (two weeks, in the case of this class) during which Student Life and others can deal with him.

I am teaching English but I do not do any group work, so at least Bully’s behavior is not causing trouble for them. But yes, I do indeed have discussion sessions, coverage of the textbook, etc. which he misses out on during the first half hour when he’s not there.
Bone: He’s a bully because he’s attempting to run my class and set policy according to his own desires. We’re supposed to maintain control of our classrooms and not take crap, attitude and verbal abuse from students–especially in a case like this, where the student has no basis for complaint other than the fact that I’m not catering to him.

Out of all three classes I have this semester, he is the only one making trouble. Everyone else understands that they are to follow the terms of the syllabus and to accept the rules and policies within it.

26

But the question is not about who pays and who is paid. The question is one of who sets the parameters, and who is required to conform to them.

You have every right not to turn up to work on time, but it will result in reduced pay, disciplinary action, or firing. You also have every right not to show up to class, but it will result in grade penalties or class failure.

You know the score when you start a job, just like you know the score when you sign up for a course and see the syllabus which, as the OP correctly points out, is viewed something like a contract. Every college and university has an add/drop period at the beginning of the semester (usually 2-3 weeks) where a student can decide whether or not he or she wants to stick with that particular course, or maybe try a different one. Class shopping is a big part of the first couple of weeks at most colleges.

Your comment about payment also suggests another attitude that sometimes gets under my skin—the idea that, because students are paying for their education, they should get to set the terms and conditions of the academic experience, and dictate the required standards. This is crap.

While the students have every right to expect a certain level of expertise and professionalism from the school and from their teachers, this is not some sort of consumer world where “the customer is always right.” For a college or university to maintain its credibility as an educational institution, certain academic, intellectual and procedural standards have to be followed, even if they do sometimes get in the way of the students’ social events.

27

Seconded.

Don’t let my extreme dislike of science and engineering professors who graded on attendance give the impression that I acted like the asshole in the OP. I was either there, or, if it wouldn’t harm my grade and I didn’t like the lecture, I wasn’t. Never was chronically late and only complained about a grade a few times (all of which were legitimate errors on the part of the grader).

28

Right, and its perfectly possible to play by the rules AND also think they’re fucking stupid. :smiley:

29

They do, thank goodness. I worked on a task force with the head division dean, I’ve known the associate dean for many, many years; and the dept. head and other liaisons for us part-timers are very cool and supportive. The fellow in Student Life/Student Discipline is quite good about following up on reports from instructors as well. This is a place that has zero tolerance for plagiarism and cheating and has suspended students for multiple infractions thereof, and has booted students out for committing forgery. So I doubt that they’ll have much mercy for Bully Boy.

30

I found numerous mistakes in this post.

But, it’s just a message board, not a writing exercise.
:smiley:

31

Amen to that. :stuck_out_tongue: Coincidentaly I am taking a Signals and Systems class where the lecture is the same almost word for word as the recommended book. Surprise, surprise, this prof. is the author of the book. And the whole pace of the lecture is so damn slooooowww. It’s just a huge waste of time. Besides nobody pays atention and the lecture is disrupted all the time. Like you said, as long as students know the material…

32

They also had smaller group sections, but they were led by a TA who was usually a busy, overworked grad student with little or no teaching experience.

I can only think of a couple who’s sessions were actually worth attending. Usually it was just a protracted “show me how to do this homework problem” or “why doesn’t my program work” session that I (and many of my peers) didn’t find beneficial.

And the 600 student classes were mostly the lower-division ones. It got a little (say, 100-200 student range) better in the upper-division courses. But attendance was optional, in most cases. I’d attend the first couple lectures, and if I was getting anything out of it, I kept attending. If I wasn’t, I stopped and studied on my own and only showed up for tests.

And on the courses where I didn’t show up, I’m REALLY glad I had the freedom not to, because I probably would’ve ended up learning less if I had to spend that in a lecture that wasn’t working for me instead of approaching the material in a way that was.

33

You’re right but, in smaller humanities classes at least, i literally cannot think of a single convincing argument about why attendance requirements are stupid.

The only possible way to make this argument is to assume that a student’s performance should be graded only on written work. But i firmly believe, and i think most of my colleagues in the humanities believe, that we are there to teach a wider variety of skills than just writing papers. Communicating your ideas and defending your position in a variety of settings not only helps you to understand the material itself more fully, but it prepares you for whatever life and career you face once you have the degree in your hand.

Many of the students i teach are not history majors. In fact, this semester i’m teaching at an art college, so every single one of my students is an art major of some sort. In cases like this, while the subject matter of the course is indeed history, i am actually less concerned in the long run with whether the students remember the particular historical details than with whether they have improved their ability to read, to think, to understand, to reason, and to communicate. Because those abilities are transferrable to just about any field of endeavor. And those abilities are enhanced by student attendance in class and participation in class discussion.

34

Thank goodness it’s not important for your classmates to know what your “opinion” of a Fourier transform is. :wink:

I’ll certainly give you this.

My exposure to humanities was pretty limited (I only took a couple upper-division courses humanities courses that weren’t the standard "History of Western Civ"type classes), but, unlike science/engineering/math courses, they weren’t taught straight from a book and the professors opinions were pretty much the whole point of the class.

35

Certainly but I think that fact that students are paying a lot of money for a service is lost on many administrators and professors. Things like attendance and homework grades grate on me. I can decide for myself whether I need to go to close or do my homework. I am not a child that needs to be looked after.

But lets get back to the OP. Certainly he should have read the syllabus and complied with the rules however asinine they may be.

36

Do you teach at my school? Does this guy have lots of ugly, crusty piercings? Because, seriously, I think he was in my philosophy class last quarter.

37

This is from the school’s Board Policy, Standards of Conduct: #11:
Disruptive behavior, willful disobedience, habitual profanity or vulgarity, or the open and persistent defiance of the authority of, or persistent abuse of, college personnel. [These, among many other offenses, can be considered good cause for discipline, including but not limited to the removal, suspension, or expulsion of a student.]

treis: I don’t actually make the rules, but my syllabus includes them because I would not be doing my job if they weren’t there.
Certainly the students don’t have to do any work or show up. That’s every student’s choice. But they have to accept the consequences.

If you don’t like this system, you’ll have to take it up with the academic senates, curriculum committees, shared governance groups, the Boards of Trustees, the Presidents, Vice Presidents, deans, the legislatures, chancellors, and any other such entities that write and enforce policy for colleges. I don’t control it. I follow the course requirements because I have to. I knew that going in. And guess what? That’s kind of like signing up for a class. See below…

(Yes, I realize you have to come in to threads like this one and lodge your usual, tired old complaints about the nasty unfairness of things like requirements and syllabi and other nuisances. I just don’t see the point of getting upset with instructors for doing exactly what they were hired to do. Syllabi are contracts of a sort, and when students sign up for a class, they are agreeing to a contract. If they don’t like it, they can drop and go find an instructor who doesn’t give a crap. Or go to another school. Or whatever. I really don’t care.)

38

I’m sorry, I just don’t get what has your panties in a knot or makes this guy “Bully Boy.”

He disagrees with your policies as set forth in the syllabus and has talked to you about them. As far as I can tell, he hasn’t threatened you, you hasn’t insulted you, and the worst thing he’s done so far, (Eric Carton voice) he’s, “failed to respect my authoratiii…” Perhaps he really does have a religious meeting or something; ask him for proof and do with it whatever you want. Apply your authority in a calm and rational manner, if he shouldn’t have signed up for the class, dock his grade fairly as you would any other student.

As it stands right now, I think you’re just insecure about your “authority” (I don’t know why a prof has to use that term) and it’s showing in how you are dealing with this student.

39

Do you pay your lawyer for the privledge of ignoring his/her advice? You may, but at what cost? If part of one’s grade is based on class attendence (in whatever form that may take) and this is stated clearly in the syllabus, why would you jepordize your final standing in the class?

Hardly - in fact, establishing an attendance policy across the board (for all classes) demonstrates just the opposite. In other words, precisely because you are paying so much for an education is why adminitrators/professors may want students to attend class on a regular basis (and why they may mandate mandatory attendence policies). Mainly because experience has shown that those students who attend classes on a regular basis perform better than those that do not.

But if it’s college policy that class attendence is mandatory, then there’s little you can do about it save to go to an institution that doesn’t have one. Besides, some institutions are mandated by law to keep attendence for financial aid purposes.

40

I agree with threemae. What bullying? He’s disagreed with you, that doesn’t make him an asshole, a bully, whatever. It really does sound like you are just insecure with your position, probably because (as you pointed out) you don’t have anyone else opposing your policies except this guy.

Quite honestly, I think you’re just fighting back because you can. He may actually have religious committments, who knows? If he does, you may not be forced to accept his excuse, but I think by not doing so, your inflexibility would make you out to be the asshole. Frankly, who gives a damn if he shows up or not? If he knows, as you know, that his writing is ‘A’-level material, and that’s what the class is supposed to teach and measure, then there’s absolutely no incentive for him to show up except to turn his work in. He may realize the futility and the waste of his time to have to deal with an archaic policy, in which case, you fighting back just because you can will probably just incite the situation.

But at this point, nothing you’ve described makes him a bully.