Student attempts to bully me. Attempt fails.

The BBQ Pit
41

So you’re just going to pick up proper Spanish on your own? If textbooks could teach people, no one would have to step foot in a classroom. I make my students do some workbook exercises (notice the ‘some’, I don’t just assign all of them) so they get some practice at home on a given subject. We then go over the subject in class the next day, and they get an opportunity to practice with their classmates and with me. Is this babying them? I don’t believe so; a textbook does not always present a topic in a manner that the student can effectively grasp. So, I present the material in a differnt format whenever possible, and they get to practice with each other, forming an understanding of the topic.
If they already understand the topic (as some of my more advanced students do), they can breeze through the homework in five minutes and earn an easy A for that part of their grade.
While there is a Hispanic (mostly Mexican) population in Madison, it’s a pretty good bet that most of these students will have little exposure to Spanish outside of the classroom (unless they are making a conscious effort - conversation partners, etc.). That’s why class time matters. I’m just a lowly TA, but I have put a ton of effort into my teaching - creating a webpage for them, preparing presentations, doing research on alternative explanations, trying to find more engaging ways for them to use Spanish (we’ve written short essays on the role of church and state, Marcelo Brodsky’s photography project and art).
Sorry, I’m no ivory tower academic, and I never will be (and the vast majority of profs in my department aren’t, either). As it stands, I get paid by the state of Wisconsin, not out of student tuition; by your logic, I owe my students jack.

Best of luck with this, viva. I’m glad you’ve got some support.
I have a few horror stories (but I probably shouldn’t tell them right now) :slight_smile:

On preview: if he has a religious commitment, why hasn’t he brought in evidence? Why didn’t he bring her a note on the first day? I’ve had students that had conflicts - on an athletic team, had a learning disability, had a prior commitment for such-and-such - and as long as they told me about it in advance, with documentation (per university policy, not mine) when necessary, I had no problem doing what I could to accommodate them. Even if this kid really has a conflict, he’s still irresponsible for not having dealt with the situation as soon as the semester started.

42

Bullshit.

He knew, when he signed up for the class, exactly what time it would meet every week. He also knew that attendance was required. He may not like those conditions, but he chose to enroll in the class knowing full well what they were.

As a bunch of us have already tried to point out, the fact is that humanities classes are about more than just teaching and measuring writing. Discussion, debate, communication are not just ancillary aspects that happen to help with writing papers; they constitute integral parts of the class itself.

In the same way that a chemist needs to be able to perform the experiments as well as pass a written exam, a humanities student should demonstrate an ability to participate in class discussion and debate as well as write a paper or pass an exam. A chemist could probably get all the theory he or she needs from the textbooks, but experimentation in lab class builds on this theoretical understanding, enhancing it and adding new skills and knowledge. Similarly, discussion and debate build on the information provided in lectures and texts and help students with communication and analytical skills that are integral to humanities subjects.

You might prefer a system where the sole measure of ability is passing a final exam or writing a paper, but a good humanities class should teach more than that.

Damn right.

I find that the biggest problem students are not those who ask for some consideration for a heavy workload or sports commitments or other extra-curricular activities. As aurelian says, we often do what we can to accommodate those students, and do it happily. I’m well aware that college can be something of a challenge. I take no pleasure in failing students, and do what i can to make sure everyone in my classes makes it through the semester.

The biggest problems are those who, with no attempt to contact the teacher or make prior arrangements, just break the rules and then expect everything to be adjusted or waived to suit their own sense of entitlement.

43

I’m still not getting where he was a bully. By your own admission he was neither yelling, nor swearing, nor even making threats.

You say you have a strict attendance policy in place. He says he has a religious commitment. So what we have here is a basic conflict that requires a bit of communications to hopefully resolve amicably.

But instead you have

  1. Docked his grade without even considering whether his excuse is either accurate or valid.
  2. Informed your entire department of his “bullying”
  3. seriously considered calling security on a student who engages you in dialog
  4. come to this website to complain about a person who challenged your “authority and expertise” (and by the way, expertise in what? Attendance policies? Do you need a masters for that or can you settle for a doctoral degree?).
    If there’s something else missing from your rendition, by all means share it. But all I’ve heard is your side and I’m still unconvinced you’re completely right.

I’m not saying you don’t have the right to implement an attendance policy, nor am I saying you don’t have the right to enforce it. But I came in here because you promised me a bully and you’ve completely failed to deliver.

44

Also, it sounds like Bully is the sort to blow the fuck up when he gets his failing grade. It may seem to some people that he didn’t do anything out of line, but I think there are warning signs now that the situation can get very out of control if viva doesn’t do something now to fix it. In the past four years, I’ve seen a lot of fellow students like this, and they are always shocked, shocked, and angry when they get their report card. The worst ones do whatever they can to raise hell.

45

In my experience, I spent almost no class time “engineering.” Now, for the record, I’m a Software Engineer, so I’m atacking this question from the Comp-Sci side of things. Civil and Mechanical Engineers might have a very different experience. I also went to a dinky community University, so, YMMV and all that.

Anyway, yeah, almost all class time was used in “lecture.” Not the big 500 person rooms. Usually there would be 25 at the start of a class and by mid-semester, 30% would be gone (esecially true in the intro courses…not so much by 300 and 400 level) Our prof would get up, talk about the things we needed to learn about, explain things (Like language keywords, or syntax of the language we were learning…or other specs of the technology) and then we were EXPECTED to go off, and actually DO what we learned, and experiment with it, and figure out exactly what different behaviors you get by writing your code in different ways.

If you didn’t do this, then the droning of the professor was wasted on you, and you’d learn nothing. If you did do this, you’d realize that (depending on the prof) the droning is actually a huge brain-dump, and if you learn to tap into it, you can learn a lot in a hurry.

If the prof was good, you’d want to attend the class, because he’d give you real world knowlege and explanations that you’d never get from a textbook. If the instructor was bad, he put up every page of the textbook on the overhead and read it out loud (had a teacher who did precisely that) and that makes showing up for class actually an inefficent use of time. To those classes, I’d show up 2 or 3 class times, and just show up for tests and turn in the project work myself. I learned more that way than I ever would have with an ass in class.

If by not showing up, you’d be hurting your fellow students, then yes, I’d say you should show up. If by not showing up you’d only be hurting yourself, then let the chips fall where they may. Because math ain’t like politics or literature. You either get it or you don’t. You got the problem right or wrong. There’s no shading, no subtelty. If I know how to do differentials, I’m not gonna get some great insight by learning differentials from a really good professor. A differential is a differential, and if you know how to do them, that’s that.

As far as “group work” the only group work I did was unofficial. The profs were aware we set ourselves up into development groups, and shared code. Indeed, they encouraged this behavior, because it taught teamwork development, which is probalby JUST as important in the workplace as knowing how to write a line of code.

But other students (and indeed, even myself a time or two) would not break into a group, and would do all the work (both coding and brain work) on their own. If they got the job done, who cared? The student might miss out on learning how to teamwork…but they’d also prove they could use their smarts and tenacity to get the work done…So it all evens out.

I was a Student Assistant for the professor I considered my “mentor” for most of my senior year. By then I knew what he was teaching already. So there were several times when he’d come into my part of the office and ask “you coming to class today?” “What you talking about?” “How to access C++ COM objects from Visual Basic.” “Pff, I already know that. See you after class.” He’d laugh.

I made all A’s in his classes. Can’t say that for all my classes, but I knew his coursework backwards and forwards because I immersed myself in it, outside of class.

So attendance, to me, was a pointless thing to grade. Because you didn’t really learn that much in class. You just got told what you needed to know so you could go somewhere else and REALLY learn it.

Just my experience,

Steve

46

I realize I’m the exception here rather than the rule, but yes, I learned two foreign languages (through the intermediate level) 80% on my own. I did show up to class, but I was always anywhere from 2-5 lessons ahead of the class at any given time.

Of course, I did (respectfully) explain this to my Italian professor, and she was kind enough to understand that I was bored in class, and told me to show up specifically for days that were marked as discussion days, show up for tests, and turn in my essays/journal entries on time, and she wouldn’t mark me down if I disregarded the attendance policy, as long as I–and this is important–could do the work.

47

viva, forgive my ignorance, but are you male or female? Is it possible that his intimidation tactics are, for lack of a better term, gender or culturally based based?

Good for you for trying to smack him down. Coming in late is disruptive, eating in class is beyond the pale, and his arguing about school policy should not be tolerated, since he can’t “cite” his assertions about it.

48

I should have proof read. Just one “based” at the end of above post! :smack:

49

“Bully” might not be one the six first terms I would have applied to this character, but he is bullying Viva (or seeking to) by pre-emptively attempting to assert rights he doesn’t have. IOW, at all points where he might have asked permission to do things (like come to class late, or attend conflicting religious events) which Viva would almost certainly have denied or severely discouraged, instead he just DID them and said in effect, “You got a problem with that?”

In short, he is “bullying” by trying to set the agenda in a situation where it’s not his agenda to set.

Before you jump down my throat about my inadequacy, my insecurity, my need to cling to my authority, my lack of testicular development, and such, in formulating this post, let me just state that some policies need to be set to make classrooms function–often these policies are frustratingly arbitrary (the text to be used, the dates for exams, the proportion of lecture to discussion to group work, the system of documentation required, etc.) and in case of disagreement, penultimately the choice must be the instructor’s. (Ultimately, it’s the administration’s or, I suppose, the court’s, but they have normally supported the instructor’s right to establish or uphold curricular policies, especially when stated on the syllabus.) Voicing disagreement with the policies has some chance of success when they’re voiced as requests–asserting disagreements as this student has is challenging the principle of the teacher’s authority to set the agenda, and that’s what Viva means by bullying, I think.

50

If he’s talking to you after class I don’t see how it’s “open,” and it doesn’t sound like he’s abusing you.

He sounds like a bit of an asshole for being habitually tardy (IMO, if you can’t attend the class because of personal reasons, either drop the course or try and get an “Incomplete” if it’s too late in the semester), but he doesn’t sound like a bully.

51

While professors certainly have a right to set any attendance policy they want so long as it’s well communicated, I always thought it was lame to do so. College students are adults and it’s up to them as to how they’re going to approach their learning – you can’t mother them all, so why try? Taking attendance is something elementary-school teachers do. College is a place where people get out what they put in – you’ll do no good coercing them to put more in, you’ll just cause a bunch of stress.

As for his challenging your authority – it appears from what you’ve posted that he’s not been insulting or threatening and (it appears) has initiated these discussions not during class but afterwards. If that’s correct, you need to grow up. You’re teaching college, for heaven’s sake – polite, reasoned disagreement is the point of the enterprise.

–Cliffy

52

One of the most overlooked forms of communication is Body Language.
Your posture, stance, & manner of movement can convey emotions & intentions very clearly. Most people think of it as the “vibe” others give off. I once was able to prevent a robbery/assault at a family rummage sale by paying attention to this.

I suspect that Viva’s little playmate may be giving off the same uber-hostile vibes.

Call Security/Student Discipline before class, Viva.

53

Cliffy, what part of “That’s not how I run my classroom” or “Read the syllabus” do you think is conducive to a “polite, reasoned disagreement,” for heaven’s sake?

54

I’ve had some UT-Austin professors with large classes take attendence in variously creative ways. A photography professor mandated that everyone sit in the same seat in the lecture hall for every class, so the three TAs could see the empty spots at the start of class. He also refused to allow anyone to come in the door after class started. I also had a government and a biology professor who spot-checked attendance by taking roll a few times per semester. If you missed that day, and the government professor did it at the end of class, you missed your attendence credit.

55

Small College Admin checking in. The college, that is…I’m sort of beefy.

For the record, I’m against attendance policies for pretty much the reasons stated so far- students at this stage are adults, and professors should have some incentive to actually teach.

However, I’m firmly on the side of the OP on this one.

2 things:

  1. It’s his/her classroom. Policies were posted/distributed on day 1, and there is usually a generous add/drop period for students to make use of. So there’s no excuse for this behavior at this point in the semester. Religious issues do not exempt you from this sort of thing, unless this is the only class where you can meet your requirements. Even so, it’s up to the student to arrange accommodations before being called to task for it.

  2. It’s a school policy. Whether you like it or not, it exists, and the school (and its employees) have a duty to enforce it. A policy that’s not enforced is worse than no policy. If you want it changed, make a case and work for it. Just don’t expect that anyone will see your slacking off as some sort of civil rights protest.

Attendance policies are in place because, on average, it’s the whip that keeps a student going to class, whatever their knowledge level. I know we’ve got a bunch of super geniuses here that were being oppressed by these policies, but there are also a lot of folks for whom this was the only reason they attended, and it kept them current in class- enough to pass, at any rate.

Attendance, for the most part = higher passing rates, and that = higher graduation rates. No college wants to be the one with a low graduation rate- it’s just bad press.

56

I count attendance into the grades because I believe that attending class is the student’s job, and if I didn’t show up for my job, I would be fired.

If they don’t like it, they can go take someone else’s class.

They are also a disruption when they show up late, and break the concentration of others who actually care about their education. If they are absent, they cannot do in class assignments or participate in discussions, and are not meeting my requirements.

I am a computer engineer, and we spent a ton of time in class actually doing engineering. There were few classes that were purely lecture, and most of those it was still extremely important to show up or you’d miss the vital stuff and fail.

57

Just curious, hardware or software? I wonder if it was just different methods to classtime, based on going to different schools, or if it’s a difference between how hardware and software are taught.

Thanks,

Steve

58

My major was Computer Engineering, which was its own department at the University of Pittsburgh, and although there was a software engineering course, as well as programming courses, I focused primarily on hardware. The only truly lecture courses I had were those that were taught by the CS department.

59

Another engineer opining on this.

The first time around, I thought I knew it all, and skipped classes a lot. Ended up getting bounced out of one school for underperforming, and graduating from another with mediocre grades.

I went back to school starting in '99, after working for a living. I’d miss a class on occasion because of illness or work-related reasons, but if I knew in advance there was going to be a problem, I’d make an effort to let the professor know that I’d be gone, and to try to find out what the lecture was and make homework arrangements. Basically, I applied the office courtesies I developed over the years. My grades this time were good enough to get into grad school.

I shook my head in stunned amazement when the jerkoff students would pull crap like this the second time I was in school. I had one professor who refused to let one guy into the classroom if he was more than 5 minutes late because the student was disruptive, and I told the prof I approved. He smiled big time.

As a general rule, the non-traditionals and the veterans would follow the rules and treat the professors with professional courtesy, and did better than the students who came from high school. It all has to do with behaving like a grown-up, not pretending to be one.

I happen to think attendance rules are silly, but the rules are the rules, and you have to choose your battles wisely (from the student’s perspective). Bucking the system like the bully is trying to do is not a successful exercise in choosing battles.

Viva, don’t let the bastard have his way. He needs to grow up.

60

I don’t see any bullying. He was a little pissed but I don’t see any bullying anywhere.