Student attempts to bully me. Attempt fails.

The BBQ Pit
61

How would you feel about a student who fails to hand in a required piece of work? Because, like it or not, this case really isn’t much different.

As i’ve pointed out on a number of occasions, in smaller humanities classes attendance is not just something you do in order to pass exams or write a better paper; it is, in and of itself, part of the actual academic work that a student does for the course. Attendance and participation, together, are actually an academic requirement, not just a procedural one. Missing classes frequently is the same, in many ways, as missing a paper, because by missing those classes the student has rendered him- or herself incapable of fulfilling a pedagogical requirement of the class.

I think that Bosda probably nailed this one; it’s not just a matter of what you say, but your attitude, tone, body language, and a variety of other things that can cause someone else to feel threatened or intimidated. The fact that we can’t see intimidation in the words themselves doesn’t mean it isn’t there. Although it would be nice if the OP expanded on this a bit.

62

I agree if its your classroom/school, its your rules, but I disagree with attendance policies in general in any class. If those were the terms at the beginning of the class, though…tough excrement for the student whether he be a bully or not.

If you want your students there you need to make it worth their time by being interesting or enlightening. If you are seeing tons of students skipping your class, you need to reevaluate your class. If they are asking you to privately tutor you in something that you already taught in class, tell them to reveiw their notes from that day and get back to you so if they skipped, they have to admit it. You have to ask yourself is it the material or the pedagogy that is important?

63

This business about coming in late due to religious obligations, IMO, is simply BS. IF this was the only time he could take the class, then he should have come to you FROM THE START and worked it out. All those who discount attendance policies because “these people are adults, not children”–this is how an adult would have handled it.

Note that I am not saying that religious obligations have no merit. When I was in college, I, too, had such obligations that meant that I’d miss about a week and a half of classes (fall quarter only). I went to each instructor after the VERY FIRST class to explain the need. And do you know what? Each and every one of them was understanding and cooperative, allowing me to make up any work I missed, including exams. The problem is that Mr. Arrogant thinks that he has no responsibilty in the matter and just wants you to knuckle under and change policy just for his poor little put-upon self. I don’t doubt for a minute that, if I’d just taken off without explanation and then expected my instructors to just hand over the make-up work and good grades, they’d have told me to take a hike, and then flunked my sorry butt. And I’d have deserved it–because I am an adult, who has to take the consequenses of her own actions.

64

Okay, let’s separate the two issues of the thread here.

  1. Attendance policies: although there may be some grumbling and personal disagreement on this, everyone agrees that this prof has the right to set an attendance policy and enforce it if she feels it’s necessary, especially given her field.

  2. Bullying: that’s where the criticism is coming in. I just don’t see the bullying and I’m tired of this, “body language made me feel uncomfortable” crap. We don’t know what his body language was and, despite your writing “expertise” you can’t tell us. I’d encourage you to go ahead and try, but I’ll still say that it can be misleading. I work as an RA and have been in a couple of situations where my duty partners went on to whine about feeling uncomfortable, “body language,” and such, and when I was there, I just wasn’t seeing or feeling it. I’m sorry if you felt threatened, but unless the student actually did or said something which other people felt threatened by, you’ve made a mistake by going to the Judicial Affairs people. This could end up to be a very serious problem for the student depending on how the office reacts to it that might folow him for the rest of his life, and I still can’t discern what he actually did that made him deserve this.

People may indeed tend to become emotional in situations where their grades are affected poorly, and this may come off as a “bad-vibe.” This does not a bully make, and as far as I can tell, you’ve acted rashly and in a vaguely assholish manner when you likely could have avoided this situation by telling the student after the first time he was late his grade could potentially suffer from being consistently late. Simply taking off points later on an unrelated assignment smells of annoying passive-agressive behavior that frankly chaps my hide.

Here’s hoping I haven’t said anything that gives you some “bad-vibes” and causes you to go off and grab the admins or something.

65

I don’t completely agree with this - if your class is at 8:00 am, it probably isn’t the material that’s keeping people away. It would be great if every lecture was exciting and compelling, but in the real world, you paid for X number of hours to be taught Subject X - you’re not doing anybody any favours by skipping. If students don’t want to be bothered with attending classes, they should take correspondence courses and not take up space in universities and colleges.

And as others have mentioned, attending class is about more than respecting the teacher and getting some knowledge. It is also about building the maturity to fulfill your responsibilities, something you will be expected to do once you graduate. It’s character-building, is what I’m trying to say.

66

Okay, some of us will disagree on the term “Bully.” It’s actually a term used by the associate dean said. Maybe I should have said “jerk” or “Asshole” or “pushy little bastard” but it’s too late for that now.
caphis, Ender, threemae, Cliffy, etc.: The student is attempting to set policy, which is not his right. I believe him when he says he has religious duties, but there is simply no law granting him immunity and the right to wander in late whenever he pleases. He should have taken a class that met at 4pm or 7pm or some other time instead. I have already been calm and rational.
mhendo: There’s no way I can convey the student’s palpable anger to you. The glowering was pretty obvious. You know what it’s like when someone is “looking daggers” at you?
He reacted as if I were insulting him and being stupid for not knowing about this “immunity policy” that he mentioned. The reason I don’t know about it is that it does not exist. If he can actually locate this nonexistent policy, I will be certainly look at it. He didn’t like being told to prove it.
He then went to his desk, crumpled up a handout, slammed his notebook shut and threw out the paper…then apparently realized it was a handout he needed and came back to the desk to pick up another one. (I did not laugh although it was a bit funny.)

**pepperlandgirl** is right.  I have no idea how this guy is going to react on Friday when he finds out that I haven't budged.   He could be a powder keg; I don't know yet.    No matter what I say to him, I will be wrong and he'll be right, in his mind.

At no time have I insulted him or raised my voice. The class was still in session and there were still students present when he went into his song and dance. RE: body language, I was sitting at my desk in a relaxed and comfortable position. I did not jump up and get in his face, point fingers or anything else.
And in regard to what eponymous, yes, I am required to take attendance. We receive state funding and it’s connected to that. Also, I cannot just break the rules for one student and expect all the others to adhere to them. That is simply unfair. And I would be the one in trouble if I did not follow my own syllabus and the course requirements, not to mention the rules of the college.
And we profs are told to report problems with students as soon as they begin if we cannot resolve them with said students.

Baker: I’m female.

Except for one failing student who simply does not come anymore , the attendance is pretty high in all my classes. Most of the students I started out with are still there and most get there on time or pretty close to it.

Believe it or not, folks, I am considered one of the more lenient instructors. I am very flexible with students when they have medical problems, sick kids, car breakdowns or accidents, funerals, etc. I am much more understanding of these things than some of my colleagues, who give almost no leeway and will not accept late work or make-up work for any reason.

But we’re not talking here about medical problems or car accidents. This guy chose a 2pm class knowing full well that he could not possibly make it on time.

When he comes in late, he often has no idea what’s going on. I don’t think he ever looks at his syllabus.

Here is a section from the college catalog which applies here:

“Success in college often depends on regular class attendance. Poor attendance can result in a low grade in a class. Instructors will drop a student who has excessive absences. It is your responsibility to know the attendance policies of each of your instructors.”

Is that ambiguous?

67

:smack: Ignore the word “said” at the end of the second sentence.

For those who think I’m overreacting: I hope to God you’re right. I hope the student in question doesn’t lose it. I really do not want to call Security or ask a student to leave a classroom. I’ve never had to do that. It’s not something I want to do, nor do I look forward to it.

68

I completely agree that there can be no “accurate or valid” excuse for enrolling in a class which you know will conflict with another activity, regardless of what that activity is.

I attended a small, highly-regarded liberal arts school and I must admit, I have never heard of such an attendance policy at the university level. Did I have professors who would refuse to let students attend class if they were at all late? Absolutely. Did I have classes where participation was part of the grade? Certainly. Several professors shared pertinent information during lectures that was not otherwise available.

I understand why colleges frequently have strict attendance policies. 1) They will recommend students for work placement; 2) many students qualify for employment insurance (in Canada) while attending school and the government requires some documentation. I am better able to understand the reasoning behind such policies in this sort of environment.

Are the terms “College” and “University” interchangeable in the US? In Canada, a university degree will take at least 4 years to complete and likely will not result in much, if any, hands on training (particularly for an Arts degree). A college diploma will likely take 2 years or less and be largely practical as opposed to theoretical. Frankly, I don’t see the purpose of grading attendance in the first case. Participation grades serve the same purpose.

Just to clarify, I don’t think any allowances should be made for this student. He presumably was aware of your policy prior to making the choice to enroll in your class despite a known conflict.

69

I could be wrong, but I thought that a college does not (cannot) confer PhD’s, while a university does.

70

No. Frequently the sole reason for paying to step foot in a classroom is that an accredited degree is equated with legitimacy in the working world. There are many brilliantly critical and incisive people who have never taken an English Lit course, for example, that are quite capable of learning how to study and evaluate a classic novel. No professor or textbook required. Self-learning of a language is certainly possible, language tapes in my car tape deck on morning commutes were more effective than many classes that I’ve had.

Frequently, class and lecture material is necessary only because of deficiencies in a particular textbook. A good textbook is quite able to be a single-source of instruction. For example, my wife independent-studied her entire Calculus series and earned full credit without ever attending a lecture.

Frankly, this parchmented legitimacy is often the sole driver for the exorbitant amount of money that many schools are able to charge students. For the price, a student should be able to make their own decision about whether arbitrary hoops (like attendance) that a particular professor sets are worthwhile to jump through.

71

In the US, a Bachelor’s degree usually takes 4 years, while an applied arts degree (the sort usually offered by community colleges) take 2, and are geared toward getting out into the workforce. Very little theoretical stuff, literature, etc…mostly applied sciences, usually medical or computer. The state university where I work offers both.

As I said, I agree that attendance grades are not a great idea, considering these are supposed to be adults…but in the long run, I think that the perception, at least, is that is keeps them in class long enough to get the material, pass the class, and graduate. And you can’t make exceptions for self-directed learners at the expense of equity.

Here, it’s not tied to reporting, except that Financial Aid is required to report if someone has been dropped from a class over it. But if we wanted to, we could do away with the policy. However, given the way the traditional students here hoard skip days and take off long stretches where they can, I don’t think it would do them a service to do away with it.

72

I’m sorry, but this whole thing reminds me of everything that I hated (and everything that I considered wrong) in college.

Student goes to class.
By all accounts (including that of the teacher), he does well.
Teacher decides his being late is an affront to her authority and knocks his deservedly good grade.
Student complains, and gives teacher a look she doesn’t like.
Teacher decides this makes him a “jerk”, an “asshole” and a “pushy little bastard”, and immediately commiserates with other teachers ostensibly to cover her ass in case student complains to others. Other teacher agrees and labels this rebel as a “bully” for his ferocious stare.

What a load of crap.

Your “authority” should come from your knowledge of your subject and your ability to deliver it to those that have paid for you to do so. Not from your ability to wield a stick and demand submission from all those in your charge.

It’s your classroom and your rules and you can run it as you see fit and your administration will back you. But I think you’re wrong.

73

I HATED when professors would do this to me. Obviously he has a firm enough grip on the content and assignments to disregard attendance - the point of the class is to learn and prove you can understand and use the content, not to make sure the student has sat through redundant lectures.

I always figured it was teacher arrogance. “Surely no student could possibly understand this highly complex topic without my infinite wisdom and guidance.” Puh-lease.

74

Once again, someone proves that either:

a) they aren’t smart enough to read the thread

or

b) they aren’t smart enough to grasp the concepts.

Your attendance in class is not simply a sop to the teacher’s ego; it is a crucial part not only of the learning experience, but also of demonstrating to the teacher that you can, in fact, understand the material and communicate your understanding.

How many times do morons like you need it explained that written work is not the only measure of a student’s comprehension? If all a student can do is write a paper, then that student had not, by definition, demonstrated and ability to deal with all the requirements of the course.

75

Uh, I’ve read the entire thread, and I agree with the sentiments. Especially if this is an introductory level class, then yes, the emphasis is on knowing the material and applying it.

If the OP, herself, knows that the student is capable of producing A-level work, and has consistently done so, then I’d say the student has effectively proven an understanding of the material and has communicated that understanding. No need to make that student sit through any lectures that he/she does not need; that amounts to personal ego-stroking and babying.

76

No need to get snippy, pal.

Of course he isn’t fulfilling the arbitrary course requirement of showing up to class on time. This is a given and was established early on in the thread. But I’m taking issue with the requirements themselves. How does showing up to class demonstrate student comprehension better than a writing assignment or homework? Most students sit in their desks from bell to bell not saying a word. How does this demonstrate their grasp of the material?

If the student can demonstrate competence in all the standard assignments the teacher provides (tests, papers, homework), why is the class attendance metric needed to augment the student’s final evaluation? What relevance does sitting in a desk for 3 hours a week have on a student’s comprehension of the topic?

I’m not defending the OP’s “pushy little bastard,” as the guy does sound like an entitled prick. But I had required classes in college where the teacher/professor didn’t really teach anything. They would either reiterate what I had already read in the book, or reiterated what the professor said in lecture. Either way, these classes were a waste of my time, but attendance was, of course, required. So I would get A’s on the papers and tests, but get docked points for reading on the quad instead of wasting my time in class.

77

Wow, lot’s of folks here just don’t like the authority relationship. Let’s hope they all get a chance, at some point in their lives, to be put in a position of responsibility where they define the success criteria for their subordinates and evaluate their results.

In my experience, folks like bosses, instructors, or organization and institutions, etc., define the success criteria for my efforts.

Often these critera include such things as attendance (yes I’m an adult but I am evaluated based on my willingness to participate), appearance, and behavior not related to the direct tasks of the job or classroom.

Rather than waste a lot of my time and efforts on “bitchin’ about how the man is keepin’ me down” or repeating “that’s bogus!” like a mantra, I try to succeed within the parameters that have been established for me. It’s really pretty simple.

The funny thing is, people notice.

78

And that was your choice. You chose to attend that college, you chose to enroll in that class, and you chose to blow it off despite clear expectations from the administration, professor, and classmates. Consequences were, I assume, made clear at the start. As long as you accept that, we’ll all get along.

But I do get tired of all of the ‘You’re not the boss of me’ bullshit that these threads bring out. No one is defending the policy itself- only the means by which the student is ‘protesting.’ But like it or not, it’s a rule of the place where he voluntarily enrolled…so he can either lump it or walk away.

79

I think that the anti-attendace people are trying to say that, as adults, students should be able to determine the use of thier own time the best. If part of the class activities is participating in discussion about that topic then grade them with orals, if writing is the important part of the subject, grade them with papers. This is what I meant by matching the pedagogy to the desired outcomes. I had a class that started at 7:00 AM that I went to voluntarily because the lecturer was good and made the material interesting. I had a class midafternoon that I never went to because the professor was horrible and the textbook was more informative. YMMV. As a teacher, your classroom performace is not dictated by the clock or the subject, but by your understanding of and enthusiasm for the subject.

80

He had a couple of Bs, then a couple of As (on major assignments).

He does not know very much about citing or documenting sources (which were not yet required when he tried to incorporate them into a paper and made a mess of it). I mentioned to him that there is info on this in his textbook. Since he never has the book with him, I must assume that he never bought one. Even so, he could have asked for help or gone to the library or searched online for free info.

So he actually doesn’t know everything. That could be why he’s in this class.

This Friday, my classes will be in the library orientation room for the first hour of class to receive research paper orientation. He will miss much of this and probably needs it.

threemae: There are always students–not necessarily always the same ones–who are late to class at any given time. They know that points can be docked unless they have a valid reason (medical, transportation, court, etc.). But then, they also have the syllabus. I don’t think this student has his anymore, nor has he asked me for a copy, which I would happily have given him.
I did not take points off of his writing assignments. Points which are deducted for lateness and unexcused absences are subtracted from a running total.
I have not filed an official student misconduct report. I hope I won’t have to.
Take a look at Chanteuse’s post.

Had he mentioned this conflict to me earlier (which was his responsibility, since I am not a mind reader), I would have reminded him that it wasn’t going to work for him and advised him to take another class. We have classes seven days a week, from 6:30am to 10am, classes that meet off campus, and classes that are online. And he chooses to take one and create a conflict for himself. Interesting.

I had planned to speak only to my dept. head, but since she isn’t available much these days, I went to the fellow who will be the dept. head next year and ask his advice since I’ve never dealt with a situation like this one before. He recommended going to the dean. So, only a small handful of people know about this, not an entire dept. as someone here claimed.

What some of you seem to be saying is that since the student writes well, he should be allowed to come in whenever he pleases and as late as he wants, claim religious immunity, and reject anything in my syllabus that he doesn’t like because he’s decided that he’s above it all. And I’m supposed to allow him to drop in any time he wants and kow-tow to him because he can write essays (as long as they don’t contain documentation; see above).
Also interesting.
Maybe I should start coming in late, make students wait for me, and take my good old time grading their assignments. But I wouldn’t, because I respect them.

There’s a concept.