Student attempts to bully me. Attempt fails.

I have little love of college professors who grade on attendance.

A few years back, my (previous) employer sent me out of town for a week on very short notice right after winter semester had begun; I checked with my professors, who all said it would be no problem.

After my week’s absence, I showed up regularly, punctually, and participated in all class dicussions, turned in all assignments on time, etc.

And still got ripped a whole letter grade for my week’s absence from my history professor. His response: “If I wanted a better grade, I should have shown up to class.”

In disbelief, I pointed out that he had said, at the beginning of the semester, that it was okay. His response: “Sure, it’s okay; but I’m not giving you full credit for missing a week’s worth of class!”

Hello! I work a full-time job, and not some Joe-job slinging hash at Denny’s, or delivering pizzas! I was out of town on a business trip conducting a manufacturing facility maintenance survey for a Fortune 500 company!

His response: “Your job conflicts are not my problem.”

What really pisses me off is that up to his course, I was maintaining a 4.0 GPA.

Don’t bet on it. They love asserting this offensive falsehood.

If someone has the guts to intone a similar phrase to me in front of the class, I don’t mind asserting that, far from my salary being paid by his tuition, it is paid to me by Xxxxxxxx University expressly to treat him as I deem appropriate. “And as an example, right now, to make that point clear, I am commencing ignoring you for the next ten minutes. If you were my employer, I would certainly get fired for such deliberate insubordination. Let’s see what happens to me as a result in this case, shall we?” And I then ignore him for a while.

pseudotriton ruber wrote

Glad to hear you take your job so seriously.

In your mystical world, you may be paid by magical fairies, whereas students pay their tuition to the easter bunny. But that’s just silliness. Students pay tuition to the company that hires you with the express point of receiving an education from you. Their cash flows through only one intermediary (namely your employer) before going directly into your checking account. To claim that (and I’m quoting here) the idea that you are paid by tuition is an offensive falsehood is, well it’s an offensive falsehood.

Okay, you tell me why I don’t get fired, reprimanded, or otherwise interfered with for ignoring my employer.

My actual employer pays me to do things (give hard tests, challenge students to think about things they don’t really want to, give out failing grades, etc.) that on occasion displease students mightily. But these students pay their tuition–shouldn’t that entitle them to overrule my decisions? After all, according to you, they are my employer.

What you’re suggesting is akin to a customer coming into a store and demanding, because they’re paying for a stick of gum, that the clerk sing an aria from an opera. After all, without customers paying for sticks of gum, the store would go out of business, making the stick-of-gum buyer the ultimate maker of store policies.

Sometime you pay good money for the privilege of playing by someone else’s rules. Paying the money doesn’t mean that you then get to make the rules.

But I don’t give someone a stinky grade because of attendence, which is worth 5% of the total grade. In the case of a borderline grade, we will try to push it up; you won’t get a B instead of an AB in my class because you missed 7 classes as opposed to just 6.
It offends my idealism a little to say this so bluntly, but you don’t just go to school to learn; you go to learn and to earn that piece of paper at the end of it all. That means having to work within the bureaucracy that is most large state schools (never been to a small school).
I don’t particularly like having to assign a numerical value to my students’ participation, but that is the way I am told to grade…and while it has something of high school in it, well, so do some students. I do my best to make class interesting and engaging, definitely. But I teach at 3:30 four days a week (that’s another rant), and the participation grade can help to be a bit of an incentive. Again, it’s not ideal; but it’s the system under which I work, and I do my best to be fair within the boundaries.

I’m not a volunteer, I’m an employee of the state of Wisconsin. I have not had a raise or a current contract in three years, and the average TA salary is $10,000/academic year.

Well, your professor in this case was just an asshole.

If someone comes to me beforehand and tells me they’re going to miss class one particular lesson, or one particular week, because of something that they cannot avoid, i would not hold that against them. The semester is 14-16 weeks long (depending on where one teaches), and one week of missed class—especially for a good reason—should not adversely affect a student’s grade. And i don’t know a sinlge teacher who wouldn’t agree with me on this.

But what we’re talking about here, as Nightime apparently fails to appreciate, is consistent lateness or absences, not special occasions.

Yes, if they miss one or two, or even a few, that’s exactly what happens. But people are have been arguing, essentially, that as long as a student passes the exam and assignments, they should be allowed to miss class whenever they want.

But if a student misses class constantly, then he or she has, by definition, failed to satisfy the minimum requirements of the course. In humanities classes, class attendance and participation is one of the “assignments.” Failing to complete it does not just earn you a zero for that part of the course, but also means that did not meet the minimum requirements necessary to pass the course.

[Mostly deleted rant against those folks who are against attendance policies in courses. I’m really amazed at the nerve of folks who’ve not had the edifying experience of trying to teach a class, and yet they think they can tell a teacher what kinds of policies to incorporate. Hmpfh. :mad: And for what it’s worth, my mom, who is a veteran teacher, thinks folks what complain about attendance and tardy policies and stuff are pathetic, immature, and unprofessional, and I agree with her.]

viva, you have my deepest sympathies. Believe me, I feel your pain. Hang in there. Document everything. Notify security. I’m sending good vibes your way that that asshole doesn’t start trippin’.

One more time: The student received a syllabus when he added. All students receive a syllabus. They are responsible for reading it. Yes, I do go over it during the first meeting but that still doesn’t necessarily mean that everyone is actually paying attention. For all I know, they could be daydreaming. I can’t control that.
Even the ones who were there the first day and heard it all have the tendency to ignore or forget it after a while. I can’t tell you the number of times that a student has said, “When do we have this writing?” or “when is that essay due?” or “When is spring break?” or “when is the final?”
I respond, “It’s in your syllabus.”
They reply, “Oh.”
As I said, I can’t control whether they read it, lose it, ignore it, eat it or wipe their ass with it.
Ultimately,
it is incumbent on all the students to read the syllabus and keep it on hand for reference. If they lose it, I will give them another copy upon request. Hell, I’ll even run upstairs to the copier and copy my own syllabus if I run out of extras.
I can legally enforce any policy as long as it is clearly stated in the syllabus, which it is,on the first page.

I am not sure where anyone got the idea that attendance isn’t required in certain divisions. That may be the case at some schools, but it is not the case at this one. This is a state-funded community college. ALL instructors are required to take attendance and turn in their roll and attendance sheets at the end of the semester when they are also turning in their grades. They would be remiss in their duties if they did not take attendance, especially before the drop date (March 25, in our case).

Attendance, and who’s added into or dropped from a class, is something which the admin. office checks very carefully. That’s why we have to keep track of it. The state wants it that way.
As for my “inflexibility”…

Over the past fourteen years, I have made many accommodations for students who have had to miss class for legitimate reasons, like students with severe medical issues involving themselves and their families, and an elderly student who was hospitalized for a time. I also have a student who wishes to take her final early because she has to leave the country during finals week. I am much more understanding about these things than a number of my colleagues, who are absolutely unyielding.

But no way will I accommodate a guy who thinks he has the right to alter policy just because it doesn’t suit his schedule. I have never seen anyone like this before. As ruber points out, he is an exception (thank goodness). I have never filed reports on any student unless there was a clear and proven case of plagiarism. This fellow is beyond the pale.

If I’m being an ass, he can certainly go to my dept. head or dean and complain. He can file a grievance and get due process. He’ll get all the consideration he deserves.

I make some attempt to head off the “lost syllabus” problem by posting my syllabus on the web in html and Word format, so that a student never has an excuse for not knowing when things are due, etc.

So, exactly what is the purpose of attending a college supposed to be??

Those who defend not having to go to class because they can learn the material on their own I ask- don’t you feel foolish throwing your money away to a university when you could just buy some text books and learn the stuff yourself??
Do you feel that the whole “college” thing is just a hoop you have to jump through to get a piece of paper that says ‘b.s. degree’ on it.

Surely if your that intelligent to learn everything on your own you could also convince your future employer that you don’t need no stinkin degree since you learned it all on your own. Just demonstrate to them that you have the knowlege it takes to work for them.

Why bitch about having to go to class when you don’t even have to go to school?

Some classes in college aren’t far from it.

The reason you learning it on your own isn’t feasible is that “Yes, I realize I have no qualifications, but just trust me, I know what I’m doing,” doesn’t generally get your resume tossed into the “to keep” pile. Sure, some employers might be persuaded to at least give you an interview, but I believe most would prefer an employee backed by an accredited university over one who says, “Trust me.”

True.
I know this goes off in another direction but are degrees losing their “worth” because of cheating going on in colleges. Students not writing their own papers, turning in their own homework, etc. How do students that cheat make it out in the world after landing a job with a degree and not having the skills to back it up?

Regarding attendance policies and whatnot, I see no issue there. I see no cause to label him a “bully” and call security. He may be simply inquiring, or he may be an asshole, but you doing as such, certainly makes you a pussy.

I don’t have much new to add this late in the thread, but I would like to point out that at state colleges and universities, tuition is usually just a portion of the money that pays the salaries of instructors. The instructors at these colleges have an obligation not just to the students who “pay their salary” but also to the taxpayers who expect them to maintain certain standards.

mhendo: Good suggestion. I’ll get that posted.

Bone: I considered calling Security but decided not to do that unless it becomes necessary. I’ll see what happens on Friday.

aaslatten: Exactly.

I have to agree with those who say that attendance should not be the basis for a grade. If you want to use class participation as a basis and fail someone who never shows up, fine. But attendance?

What about a hypothetical student who showed up to 25/50 of some hypothetical class and during the times she was there she drove the discussion. The points she raised were so important and the insights she provided were so profound that the classes she attended were exciting and lively with the entire class participating. When she wasn’t there all the students looked at their shoes and it was like pulling teeth to get them talking. She also got good grades on tests, assignments, etc. Should she get a lower grade than someone who never missed a class but only participated if forced?

From my own experience getting degrees in physics and engineering, I never had a professor that graded on attendance except in lab classes where the work was done in class. Even with this policy I pretty much went to every class because I was paying for it and I felt it would be stupid not to go. My choice notwithstanding, I think I could have skipped many of the lectures I attended and still have done well.

There was, however, one class where I only attended 4 classes the entire semester: the first, second, midterm and final. This was in undergraduate school where as a physics major I had a lot more experience and education with dynamic systems that the typical engineering student. I was trying to get a minor in engineering and to get that minor I was required to take a sophomore-level dynamics class. This was after having a full year of mechanics in addition to several years of general physics. In the second meeting of this dynamics class the professor said the entire class grade was based upon the midterm and final, so I just went to the midterm and final and aced them. He was pissed and had quite a bit to say to me. He threatened to fail me. He stated word to the effect of “You didn’t take my class, I am not giving you a grade.” I understood, but I still got a 98 and 100 % on the two tests when the class average was in the low 60s. I went by his rules (grade based on the two tests) and I disagreed that I should be failed. He finally relented.

I don’t think it was fair to force me to take that dynamics class (and pay for it too). I could have aced the midterm and final on the first day of class. What was I supposed to get from that class? It was bad enough that the university forced me to take a class I don’t need to get my minor, but to actually force me to attend it? I held down a full time job during college and did not receive any aid from my parents. I had a life and I did not have a lot of spare time to attend classes that taught me nothing just to check boxes on a piece of paper. Grading by attendance sucks.

All that said, viva’s bully sounds like an asshole and an idiot. If a teacher told me I needed to be there or I would be penalized, I would be there.

Yeah, I was going to suggest the same thing. In fact, I don’t bother to hand out hard copies of the syllabus (or assignments, etc) – I post them on the course web page for my students. They can look them up and print them out any time they like. There are computer labs on campus that any student can use, as well. So no excuse for not reading the syllabus.

(And these are Computer Science courses, so if they don’t know how to access the web, they are taking the wrong course!)

Thank you everyone for the interesting debate. I must say that having gone through a NZ uni and worked in Australian and NZ universities, the idea of taking attendance is an alien concept for the vast majority. I’m pretty sure it is to British unis too. For those social science and arts subjects that require discussion as part of the learning process, we make class involvement part of the grade. Attending labs for science and engineering students are necessary in order to do experiments etc which make up part of the grade. I can just imagine students’ faces if you told them attendance would be taken! I think we see it as part of the learning process - yes you should attend and research shows that those who do attend, get better grades (I’d have to look that up for some references), but if you choose not to - so be it, there may be consequences - have many here have already pointed out.
The student labelled a bully, is probably a jerk - but how many involved with teaching at uni have discovered that students don’t read pamphlets, course outlines, guidelines etc! I would have been inclined to show him the rules anyway.
I’ve come across worse - students who don’t do any work (or show up for that matter) and then act surprised, then aggressively angry because they haven’t passed.

Interesting.

I did the first year of my undergraduate degree at the University of Sydney, and then transferred to UNSW for the rest of my degree. When we held small classes designed for discussion (what Australians call “tutorials,” and what Americans call “sections”) the teacher always took attendance.

My degree was a BA, with majors in History, and in Spanish and Latin American Studies.

I would be very surprised to here that your lectures had attendance requirements. Yes, sometimes tutorials and labs - if interacting in them is counted as part of your mark - but this is unusual. Was that was at UNSW - or was that both unis? In all three subjects?