Student attempts to bully me. Attempt fails.

The BBQ Pit
141

From reading all of your posts in this thread, Viva, I find that calling him a bully makes you and anyone else who calls him that at the school a) infantile, b) stupid, and c) whiners.

The student gets mad because of an attendance policy. He explains why he should be allowed to miss class. You say he’s wrong, he says “it’s a school policy” you say, “prove it.” That isn’t “bullying.” Just because he asserts something that is wrong doesn’t mean he is, “trying to set policy” it means he is wrong about policy. If you pulled out the school code and showed him where he was wrong then said, “well it should be my way” then I would say he was trying to set policy.

I don’t have much respect at all for the type of class you seem to run nor the type of institution you appear to work at. Personally when I went to college there was an understanding that it wasn’t high school and such BS things as attendance policies weren’t in effect for most serious classes.

Of course I also went to the USMA so I didn’t get to skip classes as an undergrad, but that was a whole different matter. I was being paid partially to learn that stuff so it was like a job. However in regular college the student is paying you, not vice versa, the school shouldn’t set infantile attendance policies.

But that is no fault of yours. The student was dumb enough to go to such an inferior school (probably why he is transferring, if I read correctly.) He should be aware of these policies before choosing to attend school there and before taking your class.

The only fault I find with you is the fact that you misuse the word bully in a very childish and stupid way.

142

So would i. Which is why i specifically said that attendance was taken in small group discussion classes.

In tutorials: every class, in all subject areas, at both universities.

143

I stand corrected - I’ve never had much to do with language classes (other than ESOL). Did attendance count towards your final grade?

144

To a couple of people, mostly Bill H.: did you note see the bit in viva’s first post where she said the following:

So it’s not her bitchy attendance policy. And this has affected his average in what appears to be a small way. The burden for all of these things - knowing the rules of the school and class, picking a class at a time he could make, reading the syllabus for fuck’s sake - fall on the student. When I was in school I didn’t like attendance policies either, but that was because I was late a lot and missed too much class. I never saw any of these policies used in classes that were so large and general that attendance didn’t matter. In big classes, it was usually the small weekly discussion sections (where you got something much more like face time and had your questions answered, got more into depth for a shorter amount of time and usually turned in your homework) where attendance was taken.

As far as the issue of being threatening goes, she was there, so I’ll take her word that she felt threatened. Maybe I’m stupid to assume she’s not a pompous authoritarian bitch, but I gathered that she felt threatened by his actions and demeanor, not what he said or just the fact that he disagreed with the policy. It’s not hard at all to have an argument with an instructor without being threatening. Given that viva was actually there and saw this, does it seem that impossible that the following, if done in a certain way, could be threatening?

145

Sort of. It was actually participation that was graded, but inadequate attendance could result in a reduced grade, or even failing the course.

Actually, i just looked at the UNSW School of History website. It has a “Students’ Rights and Responsibilities” section, which says:

The University itself also has a section dealing with Assessment Policy. Under the “Rights and Responsibilities of Students” section, it says:

Now, while it appears that these rules apply to all types of classes, the practical reality is that attendance was never taken in lectures or in any class where large groups are the norm. But when the class met in a smaller room, and had fewer than, say, 25 students or so, attendance was always taken.

After i graduated, and before i moved to the US to become a grad student, i spent 18 months as a tutor (TA, in American parlance) in the History Department at UNSW, and we were required to take attendance.

146

Hmmm…sounds like you might have missed the bit where it was described as a community college, with attendance policies set by the state. It’s hardly surprising that a student would plan to transfer out of one.

147

At least here in Californina, community colleges can be a very valuable way to restart your education, or save a little money if you want to attend right out of HS. The CC that I attend has an excellent record of transfers to 4 year universities, despite being chronically underfunded and fucked over. I am transferring in the fall, and I have no doubt that I will get into USC or UCI, even though right out of HS I fucked up the whole college thing. After being part of real life for a few years, I was ready to get my education, and if the CC system was not here, there was no way I would have been able to at a regular university. I know many people who have gone to prestigous universities from Community Colleges.

Of course, I understand that having sttod up for the quality of education in the Community College system, this post must be full of typo’s and grammatical errors. But hey, I am an Environmental Engineering major, so go easy on me. :slight_smile:

148

Damn right.

My partner did not finish high school. She worked at a variety of jobs and then finally decided she wanted to go back to school. Of course, no four-year college or university would accept her with her relatively poor educational record. She got her high school equivalency, and then enrolled at the City College of San Francisco. After three semesters of excellent grades, she tranferred to UC Berkeley, where she got her degree, with grades good enough to get a full fellowship to grad school at a top tier university.

Sure, community colleges are not the same as research universities, but they serve an important function in the educational system, and they also often have some very knowledgeable and committed teachers. I know a few people who did the transfer thing, and they all enjoyed their CC days, and talk about some of the excellent teachers they had.

149

Man this thread disappeared and then suddenly blew up. I am not going to go back and get specific quotes from people rather I will speak about general ideas I have seen in this thread.

** Attending class is beneficial to the students therefore they should be required to attend. **

Certainly attending class is beneficial and if you don’t you will not learn as much as if you would have. I don’t think anyone is arguing that a student shouldn’t attend class. Rather it should be the students choice to attend class or not. Now if after skipping a bunch of classes and doing poorly on assignments the student finds him or herself with a poor grade by no means should the teacher give him or her special treatment. The key point is that college students are adults and they should be able to make their choices but must live with the consequences.

** Class attendance is required to evaluate a students knowledge **

I do not see how physically being present in a class room demonstrates a students knowledge of the material of the course. If the students grade comes from demonstration of his knowledge in the course of a class discussion then I question the ability of an instructor to accurately assess knowledge in the course of a class.

The teachers should be concentrating on leader the discussion. In my opinion in order to accurately assess a students knowledge over the course of a semester the assessor would need to take some sort of notes on the students knowledge. Otherwise I think that the latter discussions during the course will be heavily weighted towards the first ones. This sort of assessment also again in my opinion allows too much of a professors personal bias to enter into a students grade.

** Class attendance is required for financial aid **

If that is the case then certainly attendance should be taken. However I see no reason why it should factor into a students grade.

** Professors are paid by the university not the students so they and the university should set any policy they want **

This is just simply not the case. The students are the customers in this situation and the university and professors as the employees of the university should strive to provide the best service possible to the students. Now that does not mean give them all As, give them extra credit or bend any and every deadline and rule for them. Students are in essence paying for two services.

The first service they are paying for is the professors and university’s assistance in gaining an education. This is pretty self explanatory.

The second is assessing a students knowledge versus his peers and awarding him a grade and ultimately a diploma. The more stringent this requirements are the more value a student gets for his money and effort into getting his diploma. If a university consistantly gives extra credit or extensions they will not be providing value in this service.

A good analogy is that of Underwriter Laboratories. Certainly they have rules and regulations and if they didn’t have these they would provide no value. What good is a certification that a test has been passed if the assessor consistantly bends the rules and requirements of the test? However the businesses frequenting UL are customers and demand a certain level of treatment. UL needs to meet these demands or they will lose business.

The problem that arises in regards to universities is twofold. First undergraduates espicially at large public univeristies are the lowest priority below research and graduate students. Professors are often hired on their research ability and stature rather than their teaching ability. The publish or perish ethos is well known by professors. With this being the priority often professors are not interested or do not put the effort into teaching they should.

The Second is that the demand for universities is largely inelastic. I would love to keep my thousands and thousands of dollars and learn engineering on my own. Unfortunately the piece of paper saying that I have the knowledge rather than having the knowledge is much more valuable. An employer is going to look at Graduated from Georgia Tech with a 3.38 major GPA much more favorably than Self-Taught Engineering. The level of employment someone can get with a college degree is much much higher than with just a high school degree. The return on the monetary and effort investment is certainly worth it. Thats not going to stop me from bitching about the bull shit though :wink: .
To the professors out there let me say this. If students are not attending your class either you are a bad professor or they are lazy idiots. If your attendence is below what you desire then look hard at what value you are providing during lecture. If you find that you are giving sufficient value and the students agree then the only people not attending your class are lazy idiots. Do you really want a bunch of lazy idiots wasting yours and other students time?

150

It’s odd, but in my experience attendance rates are much better at high quality schools than at lower quality schools. Sometimes it is lack of motivation, sometimes it is laziness, and sometimes it is arrogance - the kids thinking they are so damn smart they don’t need to be in class. The ones who are that damn smart show up.

Teachers - do you get the “tell me what’s going to be on the final” question?

Not everything taught in class is in the book or on the final. Perhaps this is more true in humanities classes. So, someone who doesn’t participate but still shows up is learning more than the person who doesn’t even bother to show up. Now, if the teacher is reading from the textbook and doesn’t answer questions or goes into greater depth, I can see not being there, but I could also see complaining to the school about incompetence.

And Bill H. - I don’t know where you work, but I bet your salary is paid by your company’s customers. This being so, why not violate corporate policies because a customer asks you to? That’s what you are telling Viva to do.

151

A lot of people in this discussion seem to be of the opinion that “it’s OK to grade based on participation, but not on attendance.”

Well, call me crazy, but I sort of see them as one and the same. Let me explain the “sort of” part:

  1. Attendance in class != automatic participation, since we all know that students can show up for a class but then spend the entire fucking time staring off into space, and not uttering a single word. Therefore, actual participation should be the basis for the grade.

HOWEVER

  1. Absence = negation of participation. If the student is not there, he is not participating. In this case, absence (and therefore lack of participation) is the basis for the grade.

I’m an English Lit major, and at my university most of my professors have taken both of the above into account. You must be in class in order to participate, and once in class you must actually participate to earn the points. And so they’ll issue part of the grade (usually 10%) on participation, part on attendance. Most of them don’t actually compose the final grade based on a percentage of attendance points; rather, they keep track of your attendance, and three/four or more unexcused absences automatically drops your final grade one entire letter grade, or fails you altogether.

Seems to work just fine for my classmates, since the ones who are absent all the time are also the ones who never do the readings, write the papers, show up for the final, or do any work for the class whatsoever.

152

Martin: This student wants to go to a university. He’s transferring to one from a community college. That’s what most students are here for.
There are 70 or so community colleges in this state. This particular one ranks pretty high among them, I hear.

He has 85% right now: a solid B. He still needs to do the research paper and the final. He’s turning in another essay tomorrow as well. He also has the chance to rewrite one of his earlier essays (that B- one comes to mind) if he wants to try to push the grade up a notch.

That said, I’m sure he’ll continue coming in late because he cannot possibly be there at 2pm, when the class starts.

My own department’s directives for preparing the syllabus state: "Attendance in class is a basic requirement. it is not the instructor’s responsibility to inform students that their absences are becoming excessive. " (I would think that also applies to tardiness.)
Setting consequences for absence is also something to be specified in the syllabus. From the same directives: "to discourage habitual tardiness or leaving class prematurely, you should include an unambiguous statement equating tardiness with absence. " [I did.]

Every student in every class got a syllabus from me, including the ones who added in the first or second week, and one who added via late petition in the third week. Evidently they read it, because I’ve heard no complaints from anyone else.

I started out with full classes, and they’re still pretty darned full. This is Freshman Comp., where we max out at 30 students per class.

153

About the salary thing – I was always under the impression that tuition wasn’t the main source of revenue for state universities. I imagine it might vary from institution to institution, but what I was able to find jibes with that impression. Here’s the operating budget for the University of Nebraska. Total revenue is $581 million, of which $130 million is tuition and $408 million is state appropriations. Here’s a pdf for the University of Georgia – $1059 million in total revenue, of which $422 million is from the state and $120 million is from tuition. Smaller private institutions are another matter: here’s an analysis of the University of San Francisco, which gets 64% of its revenue from tuition (apparently not out of line for similar universities).

In any case, for any institution, students are customers. They pay for the service that the university provides. But they aren’t the only customers. The taxpayers of the state are (or can be) a major customer – they subsidize education with the understanding that the university will turn out qualified graduates. Employers are also customers, in that they consume the graduates the university produces. The employers don’t (necessarily) fund the university directly, but the more employers want college graduates (qualified college graduates), the more the they’re willing to pay, and the more students are willing to enroll in the university. Alumni are customers – and a major source of gifts.

So certainly I think universities would be wise to treat students as customers, but universities also need to keep their other customers in mind. And, to be blunt, the needs of those other customers might be more important than the needs of students.

154

Thanks for the cites, Zut: of course instructors ought to remember that the students are paying good money to get a quality education-- but very few of us lose sight of that for a second. What THEY lose sight of (viz. Bill H.'s obnoxious student = employer analogy) is that we get paid to devise teaching methods that we think will work but which cannot, by definition, please all the students, as this long thread will attest. Whether we choose to take attendance or not, or note latenesses or not, or give extra-credit or not, or count participation in discussion or not, and on and on, some students will be pleased and other students will complain bitterly, so we choose the methods we do in the certainty that we will not please everyone.

Thats the nub of my problem with the whole students=employers argument: if you’ve got 30 different employers, all telling you their individual and contradictory preferences, you’re going to have some unhappy employers whatever you do. If the employers of an actual business gave contradictory orders, that business will not run efficiently, and so my real employer puts the professors in charge of following some general guidelines and leaves the particular policies of the courses up to us.

Generally, mature students understand this model is the way the world is run, but we have to endure all the spoiled children, the cry-babies, the lazy, the incompetent, the procrastinators, the know-it-alls and, yes, the bullies who demand to know WHY the course can’t be structured in the manner they prefer, to whom I can give the only answer that such a WHY deserves: “Because.”

155

ruber, you’re just a meanie. (I’d know, of course.) :wink: :smiley:

zut: Indeed. Thanks for the info.

I did a bit of investigation into the student’s claim of religious activity granting him immunity from being counted as late. There is indeed a law granting students the right to be absent so they can observe religious holidays.
However, my understanding of the word holiday is that it’s a full day, to be taken off by the student (or anyone else, for that matter) from work and/or school.
I am aware of no religion which has a holiday every Friday. Nor do I know of any holiday that only lasts until 2pm on Fridays. There is no “partial holiday” that I’ve ever heard of. Even if there were such a day, would it make sense to take a class that meets on Friday, regardless of the time?
I just can’t figure out how this student could have misunderstood this policy, which he claims to know so well.

156

I never said anything to contradict anything you said. I made the point that he was the one that was dumb enough to go to such a BS school, I didn’t fault you for having to do your job. Though I did fault your whiney and inappropriate comments about him being a “bully.”

157

Without revealing the name of Viva’s institution, I can assert that it is one of the top 50 associate’s degree producers in the nation. It also has one of the highest transfer rates to UC and Cal State, and recently recorded the highest enrollment of any community college in California. Many of its programs are nationally ranked, some consistently at #1. It has many more claims to fame, but to be too specific would be to give away Viva’s location, and I don’t want to do that without her permission.

Yeah. Hardly a “BS school,” as you so eloquently put it.

And as several other posters have already stated – it is the policy of nearly every institution of higher learning in America to expect their students to attend the classes they enroll in.* Are Harvard, Stanford, Princeton and Yale also “BS” schools for expecting attendance?

*Ya know, cuz, the point of higher education is to, um, learn stuff. Few exceptions exist where a student stands to gain absolutely nothing from attending a course or completing the required work.

158

Probably because some of us have had such circumstances when we went to school. Beck when I went to a state-funded community college, in California, where the instructers were required to take attendance, not all classes had grading for attendance. I blew off some biology classes and didn’t really feel bad about it. It was the same stuff I’d learned in high school. So while the professor did take roll he didn’t deduct points for my not being there.

But that is independant of grading.

159

:eek: Is it built on the side of a hill?

More of an AA school. :stuck_out_tongue:

160

I’m not telling. :wink:

MY school is built on the side of a hill, however. Go cows!