So, how did your 10 o’clock Scholar deal, Viva?
Which tells you how long people have been dealing with this problem, ya know?
FWIW Juma prayer is in the afternoon every Friday and is obligatory for all Muslim men to attend.
Looks like viva’s in California, where it’s currently only 10:30 am (the class in question starts at 2 pm). Stay tuned!
Yes, but it would stand to reason that observance of regularly scheduled services is not a “holiday” in the “Spirit of the Law” sense of the statute that vivalostwages just was referencing. e.g. an Orthodox Jewish student would have protection for observance of Yom Kippur, but he would be responsible for not scheduling to begin with a class that only meets at noon every single Saturday.
OK, I got it cut down to:
#21 - Sierra College (19,416)
#22 - Riverside Community College (34,400 on 3 campuses, 19,000+ in Riverside)
#23 - Pasadena City College (28,863)
#39 - Mt. San Antonio College (Mt. SAC as everyone calls it) (25,650)
#46 - De Anza College (22,000)
#47 - Santa Ana College (don’t know)
#49 - San Joaquin River College (don’t know)
from this cite for 2004.
I’m kind of interested in which college viva’s teaching at.
My guess is RCC or Mt. SAC.
Damn, DVC gets no love. Over 26k students and a transfer rate that’s 67% higher than the national average. Even #1 in transfers within the state.
Voyager wrote
I’m the CEO of a 50-person company I founded. Previously, I was the VP of Engineering at a 150-person company, and previous to that I was the CTO of a 150-person company.
I’m an establishment guy. I see the point of view of the establishment and don’t have time for the rogue who whines because he can’t see how the needs of others fit into the picture. If the “bully” in this case were disrupting the class, I’d say “hang him”. Same if he wasn’t applying himself. Same if he didn’t try his best or held other students down with his actions.
But that wasn’t what happened. He came to class when it was important. He apparently learned the material. He apparently did well on the tests and assignments. Now he’s having his grade reduced because he was tardy.
Yes, it sounds like he could work on those human interaction skills. If the “bully” told me his side of the story, I’d ask him what the hell he was thinking talking in threatening tones to someone he was trying to convince of his point of view.
But the “bully” is not the one posting his story for critique. (and yes, posting is invitation for critique, though you may only want positive ones).
Our favorite OP says she can make these rules and her administration will back her and I completely believe this. Just because you can do something doesn’t make it right.
And another thing:
vivalostwages wrote
I keep getting the feeling you’re one of those teachers I really really didn’t care for. An answer to a simple question like “when is this essay due?” doesn’t seem to be that big of a deal to deliver. I mean saying the words “January 6” takes about the same effort as “look it up”. And you’re not saying “look it up” in the positive context of “go learn something”, but rather the domineering context of “obey me”.
Just because someone doesn’t memorize all the test dates that you gave them six months ago doesn’t make them insubordinate.
I can tell you in my own professional life, I make it a point to tell people when things are due, both ahead of time and as deadlines are looming. And certainly if someone asks me for a deadline reminder, I’ll go out of my way to let them know. But then, I care that my reports succeed. The success of your charges seems to be a lower priority, lower than their enforced respect for you at least.
Perhaps I’m being too harsh. Perhaps you’re a wonderful teacher, and perhaps the “bully” truly is a jerk who needs to be knocked down a peg. Still, I encourage you to look inside and see if there aren’t things you can change that can lead to your students getting a better education. That’s where real respect comes from.
Well, we’ve already established that he knew at the very beginning of the semester that his persistent latenesses would be unacceptable. And he chose to take the class anyway. Just because you happen to believe that “he came to class when it was important” doesn’t mean that this is actually what happened. Because the university administration and the teacher are the ones who decide when it is important to come to class.
Just out of interest, Mr. CEO: when you hire someone, and tell him that his job involves being on-site for X hours per week, is it acceptable for him to turn up 2 hours late every day just because he feels you’re being unreasonable? And would it be an acceptable excuse for him to say" “I’m coming to work when it’s important”?
And when you’re done answering Mhendo’s question, you arrogant shithead, I have a couple for you:
Your company has written policies, right? How about if one of your minions wants to know something that’s in a written policy that you know for a fact you’ve distributed to every employee and which you require them to read carefully? How about if he marches up to you and asks you something that’s in this written policy? How about if he does it regularly, or all 50, or all 5000 (I forget–maybe it’s five million?) employees charge into your office to ask you stupid shit like this?
Yeah, I know–you calmly tell each and every one of them what they need to know, because that helps them do their work properly.
Assholes like you really ought to be very thankful that some professors try to imbue some sense of responsibility and reading instructions and other practical skills before we let students enter the workforce. But you’re not. That’s how you get to be such arrogant shitheads.
ruber you can take my last response to what’s his name for yourself as well. Not interested in re-typing or reading drivel from either of you.
Not mr CEO, but it would be perfectly allright for an employee to take time out for religious observances provided that they still worked to the required standards by making up that time at some other time. Does the problem student have an alternative day when he can do the same course that does not interfere with his religious requirements?
The student seems totally unreasonable in not attempting to make arrangements that would not intefere with his religion before they became a problem. But the university should also do all it can to accomodate student’s religious requirements. So far neither the student nor the teacher seem to be behaving like grown ups, but then again adults so rarely do behave as grown ups.
[QUOTE=Bill H.]
He is an hour late for every class. For you to characterize that as “he was tardy” is disingenuous at best. In your case, I suspect it is dishonest debating.
Try to understand this. It is very simple. The college makes the rules. Again. The college makes the rules.
It is on the syllabus. Where do you see that someone is being required to memorize test dates? Do your employess have to “memorize” what time they have to be at work? Stop making shit up.
I started a new class at a Community College here in New Jersey. It’s 7.5 weeks long and meets twice a week.
The teacher gave us our sylibus showing when the quizes and tests would be. It tuns out that I had a prior engagement the night for the first quiz and it looked like I would have to come late to class or miss the quiz taking a 0.
Because I addressed this on the second day of class which is 4 class days prior to the quiz the instructor said we will work something out.
If your student had said something to you on the second day of class and you were unwilling to work something out with the student I would be flaming you right now, but it’s the student’s responsibility to let you know in advance if there are any scheduling conflicts that could be adjusted.
If my instructor told me I would have to tale a 0 for the quiz then I would have decided if canceling the prior engagemet would be feasible.
(The following paragraph is not directed in any way at Contrapuntal.
I do mention due dates, assignments, papers, etc. and write them on the board as well. Not that I should have to, since the syllabus is a back-up. Hence: “It’s in your syllabus.” They don’t have to memorize a damn fucking thing . All they have to do is take an occasional peek at the syllabus. If that’s asking too much, then I suppose I am quite unreasonable.
“The college makes the rules” argument didn’t go over too well today. Again.
Here’s how it went down:
Pain-in-the-Ass Student arrived 45 minutes late and coughing his head off. We had already been in the library meeting room since 2pm for a research presentation given by the librarian. He had to go out to cough some more and missed the rest of what she covered, so basically he missed it all. She finished around 3 and we went back to the classroom.
After collecting papers and giving stuff back, I said we'd take a break. Some students went outside; some didn't. PITA grumbled to another student that I'd told him last week he was "S.O.L."
PITA spent the entire class time coughing so loudly and frequently that I thought he might barf up a lung. The students and I had to keep repeating ourselves over the din. They kept looking over at him; some with concern and others with irritation.
(He could have contacted me and I would have excused him for illness; that’s something that I can and do accommodate on a regular basis, along with hospitalization, funerals to attend, transportation troubles, etc. He also could have asked to go to the nearby health center and I would have excused that as well. )
He lingered at the end of class (around 4:45) and I led the way outside because I didn't care to be indoors alone with him-- partly because of the germs, this time.
*Some of what is written below may not be in strict chronological order, but it covers the content of our little debate:
He started up again with how unfair it is that he doesn't get excused for tardiness because he has religious duties. I told him that there are such things as religious holidays but that's not what this is. I said he should have taken a class that does not conflict with these duties. We have many Comp. classes that meet at any hour, any day of the week, some online and some off campus. See **JRDelirious's** comment. And yes, I believe they are JUMA prayers. I have had Muslim students before and never had a problem....but maybe that's because they took classes when they could actually be there.
I reminded him that he got a syllabus when he added and that my/the college's policies are clearly stated in it, as they are required to be. He complained that they are ludicrous.
(Fine. Let’s assume for a moment that they are. Still, these rules have been in place for quite some time at many a college, and they don’t appear to be changing any time soon. I don’t invent them, but I do have to follow them. And why, again, did he wait until freaking March to complain or to say anything at all about his duties?)
I said that coming in late, especially as late as he does, is disruptive. He disagreed. (It is considered disruptive behavior, but since college policy is so offensive to some folks here, not to mention “ludicrous,” I won’t bother quoting it.)
I reminded him that being 45 minutes late counts as an absence. His response: “Well, I had to stop and throw up! Do you want me to throw up in the library?”
(I was upset at the time and did not laugh, but the above sounds funny now that I’m writing it. I wish to God he’d stayed home where he could have thrown up and coughed his bloody head off all day instead of spewing his snotcrap all over my classroom. I’m drinking Airborne like it’s going out of style now.)
He started again with his “I write well and so the rest of it shouldn’t matter” baloney again, just like last week. I said he still has to be in class just like everyone else does and can’t just drop in whenever he can get there. (If writing good papers were the only purpose of the course, maybe he’d have a point. But they’re not. )
I could feel myself about to lose it and said that if he felt that I had wronged him or acted unfairly or inappropriately, he was welcome to talk to my assoc. dean, XXX, who was in a nearby bldg. until 5 today. PITA said he wouldn’t do that, because XXX would just side with me. He muttered something about the dept. head that I couldn’t quite make out. I said that he could certainly talk to her but she can be hard to locate at times and that’s why I was suggesting XXX instead.
He repeated the “ludicrous” complaint.
I said, “I’m through arguing with you. I’m DONE.” (If we had continued, I’d still be there.)
He walked away pouting.
I did not call Security.
I can only make so many accommodations.
*Note: The admin. here will back me if I’m right, but that doesn’t mean they back everyone. Instructors are not, in fact, permitted to get away with just anything.
I have to laugh. If we blow off the policies and violate our own syllabus to cater to students, we profs would be out of a job for non-compliance. But if we stick to the syllabus and follow the rules, we’re inflexible and mean to students.
Especially when they’re at death’s door.
Okay, if “bully” isn’t accurate, how about “Typhoid Marty”? “Pouty Petey”? Or is that still too harsh?
Anyhow, I’m going out of town tomorrow and will be back in a few days to observe the inevitable fallout here.
Have fun.
Shit, I left out one of the best parts:
Just before the “I had to stop and throw up” comment, PITA said, “I didn’t know we were going to be meeting in the library today.” (Apparently when he’d arrived at 2:30 at the classroom, he saw my postings on the doors.)
I replied, “Yes you did. You were there at the time last week when I said we’d be in the library for the first hour. I know you were there. I repeated it several times and wrote it on the board so everyone would remember even though it’s already in the [s-word I’m not supposed to say] and has been since the beginning of the semester.”
It sounds like PITA has worked this shit successfully before and has never had to come up with a plan B. You have shown far more restraint than I would if I were in a similar situation.
Yeah, he definitely seems whiney and pouty and all that other stuff (still not seeing the “bully” though…), and I can certainly agree with you that coming in late is disruptive (one of my biggest pet peeves when I was at Indiana University, actually, and I think I wrote a bit in my Livejournal about it at the time).
If it’s policy now, then it’s policy now, period. If it sucks (which, in my opinion, grading by attendance in many cases does), then I’m an advocate of working to change the policy. You don’t do that by showing up late to classes and whining about it later, and you’ve got to live with it right now.
I’m glad you didn’t have to call security and I hope things work out. If he misses too many classes, are you allowed to drop him yourself? My community college does that, and it’s pretty handy for weeding out the kids who only show up once every couple weeks and don’t want to be there anyway.
vivalostwages wrote
I’m not quite clear why you didn’t say “it’s there on the board” if it was, but no matter.
My point on the “it’s in the syllabus” matter is this: yes, it’s the students job to read the syllabus and know their responsibilities. But if someone asks you a question on something in the syllabus, and your know the answer off the top of your head, I don’t see any value in holding the answer from them and instead having them go look it up in their syllabus. Honestly, I can’t see any reason you’re doing that except to exert your position of authority. Is there another reason I’m missing?
Again, I’m trying to relate your actions to my life. I, like you, manage people and expect them to deliver. I tell them ahead of time what’s expected of them and expect that they’ll deliver it on time. Also, similar to you writing upcoming deadlines on the board, I remind people of upcoming deadlines so there are no surprises. But if someone comes to me and asks “when does X need to be done again?” I can’t imagine a valid reason for saying “I told you that 3 months ago. Go check your past emails.” It just seems so counter-productive if I know the answer immediately. (If I don’t know the answer and it would take some work to discover, it would be a different story. I’m talking about situations where I (or you) know the answer off the top of my head). Now, I may give them a nudge, “it’s due next week. and I told you that 3 months ago.” But if someone is asking for direction or guidence, I can’t see any reason not to deliver it. That’s my job (and yours too, by my reckoning.)
On the tardiness/grade issue:
My beef is specifically with the policy that grade is impacted by attendance. I understand that the school has policies, but your policies go beyond that, mandating grade reduction for non-attendance. I don’t feel that’s right.
The student does sound like a jerk who wants special exceptions made for meaningless reasons.
Consider it as a simulation of the real world. Try coming into work 45 minutes late one day a week.
Ah, but Bill’s allowed to come in late for work. He’s the boss, you see.
Of course, he still hasn’t deigned to answer the question of what he would do if one of his own workers did the same thing.