Studio Ghibli / Miyazaki

[Mahaloth]

@Toy_varen

Before pixar they were the top of the heap, but after pixar i found them overly melodramatic and in the habit of stuffing morals down your throat. I pretty much gave up on them after I saw grave of the fireflies.

Huh. I don’t remember the moral stuffing, I guess. What movies were the most guilty of that?

[Jragon]

@Siam_Sam

The wife and I are both fans, especially the wife. We could have visited Studio Ghibli in Tokyo, but it’s such a hassle to get to the place, plus you have to specify the exact date and time of your visit in advance, that we blew it off. But there’s a museum and tours, and I understand the voucher you obtain in advance is exchanged upon arrival for a ticket that is an original animation cell from a Studio Ghibli film.

Details here for anyone interested in going.

As for Grave of the Fireflies, it’s the work of Isao Takahata, not Miyazaki.

I knew that, personally I thought the thread was fine for talking about Ghibli stuff in general and not just Miyazaki.

@wombattver

Ahh, you’re right. It was a long time ago! I seem to remember that I thought Miyazaki worked on it, but didn’t direct it. Apparently, Grave and Totoro were in production at the same time and were a package deal because that was the only way Miyazaki could get backing for Totoro. The story of “Grave” was already well-known in Japanese schools and Totoro was considered a risk, so they were presented together. One of the animators I was working with had worked with a few of the animators at Ghibli, I believe.

Almost the opposite, they packaged Totoro in theaters with Grave of the Fireflies, with Totoro airing after Grave of the Fireflies. They were concerned people wouldn’t see Grave of the Fireflies because of the lesser known director, and if they put Totoro first, they were concerned people would just walk out after Totoro.

They also figured that Grave of the Fireflies was enough of a downer that putting super happy movie Totoro after it would somewhat soften the blow.

[thelurkinghorror]

My Netflix recommended a film called “Kingdom of Dreams and Madness” about Ghibli from 2013/2014. I haven’t watched it yet.

[bmoak]

It’s a pretty decent documentary, with Ghibli history and covering the making of The Wind Rises. It mostly focuses on Miyazaki and producer Toshio Suzuki. Takahata was working on Princess Kaguya at the time the documentary was filming, but IIRC refused to take part.

[bmoak]

@Toy_varen

Before pixar they were the top of the heap, but after pixar i found them overly melodramatic and in the habit of stuffing morals down your throat. I pretty much gave up on them after I saw grave of the fireflies.

So Ghibli was over the hill with their second movie (Grave of the Fireflies)?

[Mahaloth]

@bmoak

So Ghibli was over the hill with their second movie (Grave of the Fireflies)?

I wondered the same thing. I would have thought he gave up around Princess Monoke if he was going to give up.

[April_R]

My favorite is Howl’s Castle followed closely by Castle in the Sky.

I love a ton of SG and Miyasaki films though, so it’s hard to name them all.

I did make the mistake of watching Princess Mononoke with the kids, oops.

[Elendil_s_Heir]

@April_R

…I did make the mistake of watching Princess Mononoke with the kids, oops.

I don’t remember the movie that well. Why was that a mistake?

[MrDibble]

It’s a wee bit violent and some things (the hunters in boarskins just gliding along, for me) are well creepy

[Elendil_s_Heir]

@MrDibble

It’s a wee bit violent and some things (the hunters in boarskins just gliding along, for me) are well creepy

Ah, thanks.

[wombattver]

@bmoak

I’m sorry, but I find this story that Miyazaki couldn’t get backing for Tototo without attaching Grave of the Fireflies very unlikely. By that time, Miyazaki had already written and directed Nausicaa, which set box-office records in Japan, and Laputa, which was also a major financial and critical success. He was the most successful and influential anime director in Japan, and reached that plateau by creating his own original works.

Also, once the anime feature film boom took off in the 80s (largely prompted by Nausicaa), studios and financial backers were throwing their support behind all kinds of major film projects, many of which had far less commercial potential than Totoro and were made by people with much lesser resumes than Miyazaki. This was the go-go 80s, when the Japanese economy was going gangbusters and money flowed like water.

The notion that a Miyazaki film would be seen as a risky financial investment at that time, and would need to be balanced out by a film based on story kids might have read in school (with an incredibly downer ending, directed by someone who hadn’t directed a film in years and never had directed a successful film) just doesn’t fly.

Also, I taught in Japanese high schools for five years. Japanese literature is overwhelmingly taught as a survey course where students read selections and excerpts collected into a textbook. I never saw a class assigned a whole novel to read for lit class. The content leans strongly towards classical, historical, and literary works and forms. The Japanese educational system was very conservative (resistant to change), and while it is possible it was widely read in schools, I can’t see a book making it into the lit textbooks within 20 years of its publishing, especially one with a controversial story.

Well, it was long ago, so maybe I’m not remembering it with accuracy, but I’m certainly not trying to make something up that “just doesn’t fly” with you. I really didn’t have some underlying motive to spread false info. I’ve never lived in Japan or taught school there, so you would surely know more about that than I would. At the time I first saw Grave, Totoro, Kik’s, etc. I was working with HBO Animation, Warner Brother’s and Disney and simply being introduced through the animation directors and producers I knew. That was the story going around regarding the joint release of Graves and Totoro.

The excerpt below is from nausicaa.net and many sources point to a similar story… so if it’s not factual, it is/was a somewhat common rumor among the animation community at the time.

"At that time no one thought that people would want to see “a movie about two little kids and a Monster in rural Japan”, and “Totoro” was considered a big investment risk. Still, Miyazaki and the editors of “Animage” wanted to make this movie, which was Miyazaki’s pet project for a long time. So they thought up the idea of risk-sharing. “Grave” was a well-known book, and because of its “educational” value, a certain level of audience could be expected. (Indeed, “Grave” was chosen by many school boards as a movie to show their students - and “Totoro” along with it, since it was in the package.)

Toshio Suzuki, then the chief editor of “Animage” (now a producer at Studio Ghibli) went to Shinchosha, the company which published the book. Since Shinchosha was looking for an opportunity to enter the movie business, they agreed to produce the movie “Grave”. Both Tokuma and Shinchosha knew they were going to lose money, but they still went ahead with the project (they did lose money from the theatrical release). So, if it were not for “Grave”, there would have been no “Totoro”.

As for the order in which they screened the newest DVD release from CPM contains an interview with Takahata who explained:

The film was very well received from the start because of its themes, of course. People thought it was a very meaningful work. It was a little awkward in a way, because it was double-featured with My Neighbor Totoro. The response was different depending on which film was shown first. My Neighbor Totoro would make them happy, then this Grave of the Fireflies… Those who saw Totoro first didn’t want to see Fireflies to the end. Those who saw Fireflies first didn’t have that problem, and stayed to the end. The double featuring was a problem, I’d say."

[wombattver]

Does anyone know if or where some of these DVDs are available with the original English dubbing, but not the Disney voices? I’d so love to see some of those again. The Disney-release voices in Kiki’s still sound wrong to me.

I suppose even if I could find any, they probably wouldn’t be USA format.

[bmoak]

@wombattver

Does anyone know if or where some of these DVDs are available with the original English dubbing, but not the Disney voices? I’d so love to see some of those again. The Disney-release voices in Kiki’s still sound wrong to me.

I suppose even if I could find any, they probably wouldn’t be USA format.

You could just watch the subtitle versions.

[Mahaloth]

@wombattver

Does anyone know if or where some of these DVDs are available with the original English dubbing, but not the Disney voices? I’d so love to see some of those again. The Disney-release voices in Kiki’s still sound wrong to me.

I suppose even if I could find any, they probably wouldn’t be USA format.

I have a copy of Kiki using Disney voices, but without their story change. I believe Disney re-released the movie and Kiki’s cat talks again at the end. Since her cat stopping talking was a point in her maturity, it made little sense for it to talk to her at the end.

Is this the version you want? I believe they fixed some translation errors as well.

It appears my copy is the 2010 re-release. It also restored music they had edited out from the original. I like the 2010 release best.

[bmoak]

@wombattver

Well, it was long ago, so maybe I’m not remembering it with accuracy, but I’m certainly not trying to make something up that “just doesn’t fly” with you. I really didn’t have some underlying motive to spread false info. I’ve never lived in Japan or taught school there, so you would surely know more about that than I would. At the time I first saw Grave, Totoro, Kik’s, etc. I was working with HBO Animation, Warner Brother’s and Disney and simply being introduced through the animation directors and producers I knew. That was the story going around regarding the joint release of Graves and Totoro.

The excerpt below is from nausicaa.net and many sources point to a similar story… so if it’s not factual, it is/was a somewhat common rumor among the animation community at the time.

"At that time no one thought that people would want to see “a movie about two little kids and a Monster in rural Japan”, and “Totoro” was considered a big investment risk. Still, Miyazaki and the editors of “Animage” wanted to make this movie, which was Miyazaki’s pet project for a long time. So they thought up the idea of risk-sharing. “Grave” was a well-known book, and because of its “educational” value, a certain level of audience could be expected. (Indeed, “Grave” was chosen by many school boards as a movie to show their students - and “Totoro” along with it, since it was in the package.)

Toshio Suzuki, then the chief editor of “Animage” (now a producer at Studio Ghibli) went to Shinchosha, the company which published the book. Since Shinchosha was looking for an opportunity to enter the movie business, they agreed to produce the movie “Grave”. Both Tokuma and Shinchosha knew they were going to lose money, but they still went ahead with the project (they did lose money from the theatrical release). So, if it were not for “Grave”, there would have been no “Totoro”.

As for the order in which they screened the newest DVD release from CPM contains an interview with Takahata who explained:

The film was very well received from the start because of its themes, of course. People thought it was a very meaningful work. It was a little awkward in a way, because it was double-featured with My Neighbor Totoro. The response was different depending on which film was shown first. My Neighbor Totoro would make them happy, then this Grave of the Fireflies… Those who saw Totoro first didn’t want to see Fireflies to the end. Those who saw Fireflies first didn’t have that problem, and stayed to the end. The double featuring was a problem, I’d say."

Thanks for coming back to to the thread. I didn’t mean to come on strong and certainly didn’t mean to imply you were making up stuff. I figured it was more of a “I heard it from I guy I worked with who heard it from a guy he worked with, who heard it from a guy who worked in Japan for month.” story.

Also, thanks for digging up the quotes from nausicaa.net. The only way the story makes sense is if the publisher of the book was willing to finance the production even though they expected to take a loss. Quite a few companies with no experience in the film industry were willing to throw money around for the “prestige” of producing a motion picture, animated or otherwise, in the 80s.

Still, if Totoro was seen as an uncommercial risk, I can’t see Grave of the Fireflies being seen as a safer project. The market for animated movies set in the real world with absolutely no fantastical elements (outside of ones based on shojo comics romances) was zero at that time. (This movie and Takahata’s further output helped establish one)

The fact that kids might have read it school shouldn’t really be a factor in saying a project is more marketable. How many times did you as a kid rush off to see a movie because you were made to read the source book in school? It’s like a Hollywood studio boss saying something like: “So you want to make a movie with an original screenplay by J.K Rowling about two kids and a monster in rural England? Sounds risky to me. Sure, she had a big hit with that Harry Potter stuff and has a lot of fans, but I don’t think theres a market for this kind of story and it’s too different from her other stuff to get her fans out to the theater. I know! Let’s pair it with something the kids would know because they had to read it in school! And let’s make it a period piece with a real downer ending! Can we get the rights to Where the Red Fern Grows?”

BTW, both Miyazaki and Takahata have a history of making self-deprecating remarks about the commercial appeal of their upcoming projects, saying things like this movie is a story I’ve wanted to make for a long time, but I don’t think too many people will be interested in it. Miyazaki does this about The Wind Rises in the documentary mentioned upthread.

[wombattver]

Thanks. The fact that they describe Totoro as the story of “2 children and a Monster” probably wouldn’t help when pitching! Any of us who have seen it would probably describe it in much kinder, gentler terms!

[wombattver]

@Mahaloth

I have a copy of Kiki using Disney voices, but without their story change. I believe Disney re-released the movie and Kiki’s cat talks again at the end. Since her cat stopping talking was a point in her maturity, it made little sense for it to talk to her at the end.

Is this the version you want? I believe they fixed some translation errors as well.

It appears my copy is the 2010 re-release. It also restored music they had edited out from the original. I like the 2010 release best.

I know I first saw it with English subtitles, but then I saw an English dub that was before the Disney release. I just can’t seem to get past Phil Hartman as the cat - it absolutely grates on me which is odd because I’m usually a fan of his work!

I am generally happier watching in the original language with subtitles (if they’re reasonably good translations) but it’s not so easy for my kids and I want them to really enjoy these films.