Stupid archaic gender stereotypes

[Mrs.Cake]

I guess it is more important to have one of each gender if you live in a society that segregates duties, rights and responsibilities down sharp gender lines. I suspect that is the case in kanicbird’s ideal society. It wasn’t too different from how I was raised. My brothers were definitely treated differently and had different expectations than I and my sisters. Screwed us all up in our various ways. My dad’s parenting skills consisted of making men of my brothers an largely having nothing to do with the girls. I got to take care of babies and cook and clean. Education was not stressed, because the best I could hope for was to find a man to take care of me. If my father thought he could have arranged a marriage for me, he would have done it.

This was all in the '60’s and '70’s California, BTW, which probably had a lot to do with why the gender lines didn’t really stick too well for my older sister and I.

[Beware_of_Doug]

@Dangerosa

My problem with this whole line of reasoning is it sets up an entire class of children for failure. “You need a dedicated woman to be successful in raising kids.”

It’s OK to set large groups of people up for failure if you are a social darwinist/conservative/what-have-you who is convinced that humanity is going to go to hell unless some drastic solution is taken. Better by far, in this view, to sacrifice part of society than let it all go down the slippery slope to the drain.

It also ignores individuality.

To the aforementioned theorists, individuality is worth just about dick. Individuals should sacrifice to society in very abstract ways that have to do with Moral Truths, at least until they have enough money to be truly free - which follows not from basic human rights so much as from material privilege.

Until you look at each situation minutely, and few of us have the opportunity to see inside someone elses family life in the way that makes judging appropriate, it can’t be judged.

You probably have no idea how much this scares social conservatives. The family - the cornerstone of all society - not susceptible to Moral Truths? What then?

[Bam_Boo_Gut]

@billfish678

I’ll say this.

Out of the handful or two of the couples I think I know well enough to “judge”, I say for about half of them, the mother or the father could/would do about equally well raising a child/children by themselves.

On the other hand, for the other half, the men would probably do okay, but if left to the women, the kids would be lucky to either not have major issues or be fairly sucessful/normal adults.

So, from my limited experience, not only is it a stereotype, its downright lieing propaganda.

How Dad ended up with the menstruation chat.
Me: “holding up the knickers” Looks like she’s got diahorreha - funny she didn’t say anything.
Dad: Looks more like she’s getting her period to me.
Me: :smack:

His chat centred around his concern that she might have thought something was wrong (which she did) and that she didn’t tell us. She laughed, she cried, he defused the whole situation in a way I never could have. I would have bumbled on about pads and pain. It doesn’t have to take two - but she would have been a very different person without his dadishness. Also I’m a crap cook and he’s the best! He himself was raised by his grandmother for the most part although he had his own parents. Some people are good at it and others are not.

As you say Billfish it’s not always the mother who’s the best child raiser by any means. When my mates wife ran off leaving him with the nine month old baby and the two year old he said people kept checking to see if the kids were ok - which they were - it was a blessing really that she disappeared from their lives, people were bringing food and clothes for the kids - but nobody cared about him, like it was his fault, like he wasn’t capable. He had the food and clothes - he needed someone to have a cup of tea with him. Their upbringing certainly was a bit rough and ready but they had a caring loving capable dad. He didn’t have the support network that mothers have and got sneered at for not being able to keep his wife. Actually I can think of quite a few cases where the father would be doing a much better job but doesn’t have custody, the mother being into drugs and/or having mental health issues which at least in part resulted in the parents breaking up in the first place.

[Scissorjack]

@Der_Trihs

Not black people that I remember, but IIRC there have been several historic incidents where the children of American Indians and Australian Aborigines were forcibly taken and put in white Christian, English speaking homes, allegedly because it was better for the children. Not quite the same thing, but similar.

In Australia it wasn’t so much “several historic incidents” as an official government policy which was carried on for decades and only ended in 1969: The Stolen Generations. {warning: depressing reading} The Australian Government officially said “sorry” in February last year.

[kanicbird]

To deny that men and women are fundamentally different is being blinded to the obvious to the detriment of the children. You can look even at the animals where male and females have different and distinct mating and offspring raising rolls.

And fathers are very important and children will suffer without them, but it is the mother that has more in grounding them into the world, drawing them into their bodies with Love (in the womb) and the critical transition from single person to being in the world as a born baby.

Saying it is like a race issue doesn’t even make sense and is a great disservice to humanity as people just might believe you.

[Guinastasia]

I probably would have died of embarassment if I would have had the sex talk with my father at that age. (And probably him too-especially about menstruation and such.) HOWEVER, had something happened to my mother, I have plenty of aunts, as well as my grandmothers I could have gone to.

Growing up, the only difference was probably that my mom knew more about clothes and such, and my dad let me get away with more-although if I got in BIG trouble, he was the one who could usually make me behave. (Just by using his “Dad’s Pissed Off” Look) But other than that, when I was a baby, my dad did all the same stuff my mom did-bath me, feed me, change me, dress me, etc. He potty-trained me too. (Hell, when I was about a year old, I remember I’d run in and jump in the bathtub with him in the morning-he was my Daddy.)

There was always some stuff I couldn’t tell my mom that I COULD tell my father even. Each FAMILY is DIFFERENT, Kanicbird. To deny THAT, is to be blinded to REALITY.

[Ann_Onimous]

I’m sorry, but from personal experience, I call bull.

Ever since our children were born, I, a female, have worked outside the home full time and supported my family. My husband has been a stay at home dad. This arrangement has worked wonderfully for us. As much as I love my children, I do not have the patience to be a stay-at-home mom. I have also historically brought in more money than he has, so overall it was the best decision.

My husband, however, is patient, very loving, and adores his children. He and I split the responsibilities of caring for our daughter’s diabetes, and I do what I can from work. However, because of him, our daughter is on the A-B honor roll and our son, who has been in the SPED program since kindergarten, is about ready to get out of it. They have a family member that accompanies them on field trips, helps chaperone parties, and shows other kids how important a dad can be. I’m not saying I couldn’t do it: I am saying he does it better.

I may have given them love and nurturing in the womb, but so did he. Just because he didn’t carry them for 9 months doesn’t mean he didn’t love them, and by nurturing and helping take care of me while I was pregnant, he nurtured them. He talked to them as much as I did, and they responded to him from day one.

He does all of this in addition to taking care of his housebound mother, with no help at all from his brother and sister. He is an amazing man, and has done all of this with very little grumbling and complaining. This is what we do to make our family work, which is no more than any other family would do.

This sort of thing really makes me angry. There is no reason - NO REASON - that a man cannot do for his kids what a woman can do, and vice versa.

[Spice_Weasel]

Throughout most of my childhood, one of my most nurturing and supportive role models was a gay male. Far more nurturing than my mother, that’s for damn sure. He was a tremendous uncle to his nephews and if he ever has kids of his own, he’ll rock the house.

[Dangerosa]

@kanicbird

To deny that men and women are fundamentally different is being blinded to the obvious to the detriment of the children. You can look even at the animals where male and females have different and distinct mating and offspring raising rolls.

And fathers are very important and children will suffer without them, but it is the mother that has more in grounding them into the world, drawing them into their bodies with Love (in the womb) and the critical transition from single person to being in the world as a born baby.

Saying it is like a race issue doesn’t even make sense and is a great disservice to humanity as people just might believe you.

No one is denying that men and women are fundamentally different.

And not all species have gender differentiation when raising young. Swans and geese tend to share parenting and show very similar behaviors. Besides, last I checked humans were set apart from animals by the ability to have a lot more control over our behaviors.

[Fuzzy_Dunlop]

@Lizard

As for a male child, what could his mother really tell him about wet dreams, or all the unwritten codes of competition and jockeying for dominance that teenage boys expend so much energy on?

Is that really the best example you can come up with that only a male parent could pass on to a son? I had a father in the household my entire childhood and nobody ever talked to me about wet dreams or unwritten codes of competition or jockeying for dominance. If I’ve ever learned any unwritten codes that only apply to men - and I’m not conceding that I have - it would have been learned interacting with peers, not my dad. Dad and I just didn’t talk about secret man rules.

[j666]

There IS a major biological difference that makes women the more important parent: body fat.

Women have more body fat; they are softer and more comfortable. Warmer, too.

Children desperately need that soft, comfortable, and warm body to snuggle them in the early years.

It’s a well-known fact.

[Isamu]

@olivesmarch4th

and if he ever has kids of his own, he’ll rock the house.

Cradle. Rock the Cradle. Or is this another example of how men and women get the same job done, using different methods?

[Iubaris]

@j666

There IS a major biological difference that makes women the more important parent: body fat.

Women have more body fat; they are softer and more comfortable. Warmer, too.

Children desperately need that soft, comfortable, and warm body to snuggle them in the early years.

It’s a well-known fact.

Ah, but that’s just the average woman. What if you’re a child with a bony mother and a pleasantly-overweight father?

[Lynn_Bodoni]

Despite the fact that I was plump and my husband was rather bony when our daughter was an infant and toddler, he did quite a bit of snuggling and cuddling with her, and she was very happy with this. She would cling to him like any juvenile primate clings to an adult primate. He’d lie on the couch, watching TV, and she’d lie on his chest, holding onto his chest hair, and fall asleep. Both of them enjoyed this time together.

I think that one of the problems in modern society stems from the fact that infants and toddlers just don’t get held enough. I see them carried around in plastic seats. Babies need to be held by other people. While their moms and dads are the best source of cuddles, it’s also good for babies and toddlers to be held by relatives and friends. And yeah, I wore a sling for quite a while too…at least a sling offers body contact.

[Lizard]

@Fuzzy_Dunlop

Is that really the best example you can come up with that only a male parent could pass on to a son? I had a father in the household my entire childhood and nobody ever talked to me about wet dreams or unwritten codes of competition or jockeying for dominance. If I’ve ever learned any unwritten codes that only apply to men - and I’m not conceding that I have - it would have been learned interacting with peers, not my dad. Dad and I just didn’t talk about secret man rules.

Then (sorry) your father was a mediocre parent in some ways. (Not saying mediocre in general.) No, this probably ISN’T the best example I could come up with, it’s just one that came to mind quickly when I wanted to finish typing and post.

What you say about learning from your peers is true; it even applies to members of my own family, like my brother. But not everyone HAS peers to learn from. Not only that, but teenaged culture can be notoriously darwinian. Know what teenaged boys do when left to their own devices? They often do things like join gangs. It’s possible that one of the “unwritten” things you learned from your Dad was how to act like a civilized adult, something none of your teenaged friends could’ve shown you. Ever consider that?

[Lizard]

@j666

There IS a major biological difference that makes women the more important parent: body fat.

Women have more body fat; they are softer and more comfortable. Warmer, too.

Children desperately need that soft, comfortable, and warm body to snuggle them in the early years.

It’s a well-known fact.

I am quite juvenile, and after years of thorough testing, I believe this to be true.

[DianaG]

@Lizard

It’s possible that one of the “unwritten” things you learned from your Dad was how to act like a civilized adult, something none of your teenaged friends could’ve shown you. Ever consider that?

It’s equally possible to learn that from one’s mother, isn’t it?

Why is it that so many people (not necessarily Lizard) seem to feel that one must be “taught” to be “a man”? Far fewer people seem concerned that a girl won’t just naturally become a woman.

[Atomicflea]

@DianaG

Why is it that so many people (not necessarily Lizard) seem to feel that one must be “taught” to be “a man”? Far fewer people seem concerned that a girl won’t just naturally become a woman.

I used to take a Violence and Gender class and this is one of the things that stuck with me: this assumption that girls are naturally assumed to grow into women unaided, but boys have to be TAUGHT to be men. Part of this teaching involves denying boys free expression of their feelings and discouraging behaviors that are female-gendered, and encouraging aggressiveness. The theory was that most emotions are gendered femenine, and violence was almost exclusively traceable back to the feelings of shame that men felt when they felt they weren’t living up to what “being a man” meant to them.

It’s true that certain behaviors are learned, but hopefully we can raise more emotionally healthy, fulfilled children if they are well-rounded and emotionally androgynous. Some aggressiveness is good, and so is some passivity.

[Cat_Fight]

@DianaG

It’s equally possible to learn that from one’s mother, isn’t it?

Why is it that so many people (not necessarily Lizard) seem to feel that one must be “taught” to be “a man”? Far fewer people seem concerned that a girl won’t just naturally become a woman.

They’ll know when they get their periods. Ta daa!

[Beware_of_Doug]

@DianaG

It’s equally possible to learn that from one’s mother, isn’t it?

Why is it that so many people (not necessarily Lizard) seem to feel that one must be “taught” to be “a man”? Far fewer people seem concerned that a girl won’t just naturally become a woman.

Women can be. Men have to do: compete, produce, reproduce, achieve.