Stupid Conservatives

Not all conservatives are stuipid, and not all stupid people are conservative, but at the present time there is a group of comple nunbskull conservatives that have grabbed the microphone.

I am a liberal, but I understand that people can look at the same facts and reach different conclusions. Abortion, how much govt regulation is appropriate, drug policy, and gun control are example of issues that people of good faith can hold a variety of opinions on.

There are some things, however, that are not in dispute. If you believe the earth is 6,000 years old and Noah put two of every kind of animal in the Ark then you are just a moron and the main stream media should avoid putting you on the air to discuss science policy. The same is true of people like Jenny McCarthy.

Which brings me to this:

This is not only untrue, it is the exact opposite of what economists believe. A recession/depression is exactly the point at which the govt. *should *employ deficit spending to boost the economy.

This reminds me of Joe the Plumber who didn’t even know the difference between net profit and gross receipts, yet was being brought out to discuss tax policy. Can’t the media please call these people on their bullshit? What’s next, are we going to have moon landing deniers cover the next shuttle launch?

There is another layer of conservatives to consider. The group of people who set about establishing a system that enabled them to make billions of dollars were very smart. They took the time to pass legislation and to repeal laws that kept them from having a free reign in the financial markets. We all have to pay for what they did. But they were very skillful in manipulating the public and the politicians to achieve their ends. They even got us to give them huge amounts of tax dollars to fix the system. They convinced many that we needed them to fix it because they were so knowledgeable about financial matters. They are successful thieves . Instead of going directly to jail, we gave them a get out of jail free card. Now they are making huge salaries and bonuses to supposedly fix what they broke.

Which is why the current administration intends to run massive deficits long after the recession ends … also the exact opposite of what Keynsian economists believe! Whee!

Not all liberals are stuipid, and not all stupid people are liberal, but at the present time there is a group of complete numbskull liberals that have grabbed the oval office.

It is by no means universally accepted that governments should engage in deficit spending in recessions to boost the economy.

It is not that long ago that Keynes was widely discredited by most economists. Hell, even Keynes stopped believing in stimulative spending to smooth the business cycle. He came to believe that spending could not be timed quickly enough to work as a counter-cyclical force.

The only reason Keynes was resurrected this time around was because the accepted way to fight the recession - through monetary policy - ran out of bullets. With interest rates at zero, it was felt that there was nowhere left to go. And since politicians get elected on a platform to ‘do something’ about the recession, they glommed on to Keynesian stimulus as their plan, and found enough economists (including some good ones) who agreed that trying it is better than nothing.

But there is plenty of opposition. I can give you a list of Nobel prize-winning economists who are dead set against this. So, saying that some Republicans are ‘stupid’ for not accepting the correctness of stimulative policy is, well… stupid.

Anyway, let’s look at how the grand plan is working out so far. Christina Romer, the economist on Obama’s staff who led the plan for the stimulus, made some hard predictions for what would happen with and without the stimulus. So far, the first data points show her predictions to be utterly wrong. Unemployment is far higher than she said it would be. It’s even higher than her model showed for the non-stimulus case. The Presidential budget’s prediction for GDP growth with the stimulus is so far completely off the mark.

But what about the vaunted multiplier? For the stimulus to make any kind of sense, you absolutely need that multiplier to be 1.4 or 1.5. So far, it looks like it’s going the other way. As of today, very little of the stimulus money has had any effect. But the higher deficits to pay for it HAVE had an effect - a bad one. The bond markets are reacting to the demand for so much debt financing by pushing up yields. This has raised the cost of mortgages already by .25%. Just last week after the last round of treasury auctions long bonds went up another 18 basis points. This is going to hurt the economy NOW, while it’s in recession. And the government’s spending stimulus may start to show up as the economy is starting to recover on its own, which could cause price distortions and even contribute to another bubble.

In the meantime, the debt that’s being racked up by this is going to eat up an additional 10% of EVERY budget until it is paid back - and no one knows how to pay it back. The rich can’t be taxed enough to pay it back. So from here on in, in perpituity, interest on Obama’s first four years is going to cost Americans 10% of every tax dollar. How do you think that will help long-term economic growth?

Another bad effect is inflation. One way the government has been keeping yields down on the treasury notes has been to buy them back by printing more money - monetizing the debt. This is almost certain to translate into inflation once the economy starts to recover, which could in turn lead to a double dip recession.

Finally, the third way in which the stimulus can backfire is that money that would have been invested today, when it’s needed, sits on the sidelines while investors wait for stimulus money. There’s evidence that this is happening in a number of areas. Why start a project now and pay 100%, when you can start it in a year and get the government to kick in for half?

None of these problems were unforseen. The opponents of the stimulus have been predicting this all along. And so far, they’re looking more correct than Obama’s economic team is.

Far from being an economic certainty, Obama’s stimulus plan is really a very risky swing for the fences. Anyone who thinks this was the only reasonable course of action hasn’t been following the debate very well.

http://www.washingtonmonthly.com/archives/individual/2009_06/018546.php

Conservative Misinformation University

You’ll laugh, you’ll cry, you’ll hurl…

Thanks for the depressing update, Sam Stone. I ask for a cite not because I think you’re full of shit but because I’m curious. The economy, post-stimulus, seems to have been covered far, far less than the process of passing it.

Not that I expect there to be a finite verdict on its effectiveness, one way or the other, this early. But if what you wrote is true, it sounds as we’re trending towards unhappy town.

[quote=“DanBlather, post:1, topic:499245”]

I am a liberal, but I understand that people can look at the same facts and reach different conclusions. Abortion, how much govt regulation is appropriate, drug policy, and gun control are example of issues that people of good faith can hold a variety of opinions on.

There are some things, however, that are not in dispute. If you believe the earth is 6,000 years old and Noah put two of every kind of animal in the Ark then you are just a moron and the main stream media should avoid putting you on the air to discuss science policy. The same is true of people like Jenny McCarthy.
The effect of government policy and spending on a recession is certainly in the former group rather than the latter. It’s not as though it’s some obvious truth (like the Earth not being 6000 years old). It’s nebulous enough that the results aren’t clear and there are intelligent arguments for multiple viewpoints.

Slightly OT, but given that so many economists didn’t see the credit crunch coming, and given that so many different, mutually exclusive solutions were proposed, and given that now (if Sam Stone’s right) it seems that the nation’s top economic brains don’t know how the stimulus is going to work, and given that the conventional wisdom is that you can’t ever get two economists to agree on anything anyway, in other words, given that the discipline’s predictive power is so utterly, desperately dismal, by what right do we even call it a science?

The method is generally scientific because it attempts to isolate for variables and be evidence-based and on some level to try to be objective, but there are plenty of people that don’t consider it a real science. It’s complex and open to interpretation - if it’s a science, it’s a soft science like history or sociology.

I would just like to add to this something which is marginally relevant:

I bought a computer a while back and it arrived today. So, I haven’t installed all of my software on it, including my ad blocker program. Thus, I now get to see the ads. The one appearing immediately below your post is for a a spin free poll courtesy of Bill O’Reilly. I’m somehow amused at the irony.

Carry on.

“Most”? Cite? I’m fairly certain the Chicago School is a minority.

Deficit spending means the government has to borrow money. At some point, interest rates will skyrocket and the government will be unable to borrow more money without increasing its debt service an amount greater than the amount borrowed. And when that happens, we’re Argentina. Except it’ll be worse, because Argentina can still suck enough pesos out of Hugo Chavez’s dick to pay the police but we will have no such option.

The debt is higher than it’s been in decades, so we’re in unknown territory and nobody really knows how far we can push it. Except you! Since you apparently know exactly how much the government can borrow without risking sovereign default, may I suggest that you immediately contact the president and offer him your expertise?

Yes, we are fcuked because of reducing government revenue while increasing spending. However to say, as Palin does, that “it defies any sensible economic policy that any of us ever learned through college. It defies economy practices and principles that tell ya 'you gotta quit digging that hole when you are in that financial hole”.

The consensus in the economic community is that we should have been paying down the deficit while the economy was stong so that in our current position we could afford to stimulate the economy. I certainly didn’t learn in college, and I doubt she did, that you reduce govt spending during a recession.

Furthermore, to respond to earlier posters, what ever the multiplier is of stimulus spending it’s better than the multiplier of spending to blow up stuff in another country.

Wow, way to move the goalposts there, Blather. When in doubt, bitch about the Iraq war. That always trumps the debate.

Can we invents a new form of Godwin’s law for this? Someone should get a smack upside the head the first time they resort to, “Bush lied! People died!” in response to a criticism of the current President’s policies.

Or as another famous organization once said, isn’t it time to ‘Move On’?

Birdmonster: I’ll be back with some cites for you in a bit. I have to run for a little while.

Nonsense. Debt is hardly at historical highs when compared to GDP nor is it that remarkable on the world stage.

We’ve never been in this situation before, so you can’t blame economists for not agreeing.

The idiocy of Palin’s comment is not that it comes out against the stimulus - it is that someone who probably took Econ 101 in Podunk U (and got a C, no doubt) is saying that economists with their big Ph.Ds just don’t have no common sense.
Economics is a bit too complicated to work by plain common sense. And she wouldn’t know a model if it bit her on the ass. I’d love to see what she’d do in an econometrics class.

The stupid conservatives that are being railed at, are voting against their own interests. On the basis of one issue, they vote for a group that has no real connection to them. The Repubs have not delivered an abortion ban , even though they have the Supreme Court stacked and had the House and Senate in their power. They have to keep these guys in line. If they actually ended abortion, they would have to find another theme to rally single issue voters. After guns and abortion, what do they offer? More money for the rich and less rights .More people looting the treasury. They have nothing to give to the poor and uneducated. But claiming they are on their side against evil abortion , guns and gays ,will get votes.
Religion is just another tool that the Repubs use to compete.

<never mind>