Stupid dog, stupid cat, need advice

Back story; Have two older (9+ yrs) cats (Ren and Stimpy - original residents), one young female cat (-2) (Minou), one female dog (Gracie), and one male dog (Niko). Niko is new to the house but about 7 yrs old. Gracie came as a pup, and Minou as a kitten. We had another dog (George) but lost him so, because Gracie was depressed, we took on Niko - who shares a father with George and looks virtually identical. Niko is a sheltie. Gracie is a ‘Cavashel’ (Sheltie-Cavalier King Charles Spaniel mix).

Ren and Stimpy hate Niko. Minou doesn’t care. Gracie and Niko get along fine. Ren moved out of the house six months ago when Niko moved in. He now lives outside in the barn or in the woods and fields around the house. We dragged him in during the winter and left him in a separate part of the house (away from Niko) but as soon as we went to bed he’d head back out. We have a pet door for all the critters and the cats have free reign. The dogs are locked in our bedroom with us at night.

Stimpy is starting to get used to Niko and will occasionally come downstairs (out of the safe zone) to eat but mostly stays in his bed in the safe zone. He’s not a very active cat at the best of times.
None of the cats, including Ren are bothered by Gracie at all. Ren moved out when we got her too but moved back after a few weeks. He also moved out when we originally got George but moved back home after a month.

Niko is a jerk. He’s obsessed with the two old cats (who are brothers and look virtually the same). I’ve managed to get him to leave Stimpy mostly alone when he shows his face but if Stimpy tries to go out or runs in any way, Niko is on him. Minou, on the other hand, can prance by, run by, scamper by, jump on Niko, do anything she pleases and he pretty much ignores her. He was all excited about her at first too, but she smacked him a few times and he’s learned.

The other day Stimpy came downstairs and I held Niko and he was literally shaking with eagerness to go after Stimpy. If Niko jumps at Stimpy, Stimpy will run. If Gracie approaches him he does nothing or rubs up against her. So it’s not a dog/cat thing. It’s a specific dog/specific cat thing.

And the worst problem is Ren. We don’t know how to get him back into the house and we don’t know how to get Niko to leave him be. Stimpy will figure it out eventually I think. But I’m starting to despair with Ren. Strangely, when we first got Niko none of the cats were bothered. I’m pretty sure they thought he was George. Then he barked and all hell broke loose. Even now, Ren will occasionally come out of the woods when my husband is walking Niko and Gracie (on a leash) and rub around them. Until Niko barks, then all bets are off.

So… advice?
I’m thinking of getting this; Educator. Anyone have any experience with them?

Sorry about the wall of text. Not sure how to explain it any other way.

Honestly? Niko and your cats are all very stressed and that is not likely to change. Best case scenario - find a cat-free home for Niko. Or find a dog-free home for Ren.mHard-wiring/prey drive can be tough to overcome and it’s not fair to him, or to Ren and Stimpy, to be put in this situation. I’m sure that’s not what you want to hear. But I very much doubt that Niko and Ren in particular will ever be reliably safe together.

Shock collars have their place but can backfire in a hurry if not used with great care. (Niko gets shocked when lunging or showing interest, and transfers animosity and stress to target cat thus making situation worse.) I would not employ a shock collar unless under the guidance of someone who really knows what they are doing. I have aided someone very experienced with training shock collars but wouldn’t mess with them without supervision, personally.

I’ve fostered dogs and cats for over two decades, and have trained dogs to a high level of competition. I love cats too. I personally would not try to maintain a household where there’s a danger that one animal may attack or harm another, no matter how slight. If there is any question, foster dogs and cats are kept separated and stress-free in my absence.

Well, you’re right about that! :slight_smile:

You may be right about that as well. But, since Niko does just fine with Minou, and isn’t aggressive with Stimpy, just really really excited and interested (mostly in sniffing his butt which Stimpy objects to), I do still have some hope that we can resolve this.

hmmm, good point. Hadn’t thought of that possibility. If I get the thing*, I’m hoping to start by training him to stop barking incessantly - mostly when someone comes to the door. He’s a sheltie after all. Maybe work on that first to see how it goes and not use it in relation to the cats at all until we see how it’s going?

I think the only possible danger of attack is from Ren if Niko gets too obnoxious. Niko nudges but I haven’t seen him bite anything and we have free range chickens that he really, really wants to herd so he circles them and finally nudges them with his nose. They’re less than impressed and squawk at him but no one has lost any feathers yet.
Fortunately, our house is set up so that we can keep animals separated for the most part so… maybe there’s hope?

*it’s not a shock collar per se. It’s more of a muscle vibration thing. My daughter has one for her dog and I’ve felt it. It’s a weird sensation but not a shock.

The Cat Whisperer show on animal planet dealt with this a few times. I got all confused at the names so I don’t know which are the cats and which are the dogs, but in one episode I saw, you put one in a cage and have them both in the same room until they calm down in each other’s presence. There was another episode about having them eat together on either side of a closed door so they can smell each other, then after a few days, open the door.

Animals are territorial. You’d probably be pretty steamed if someone moved into your living room without your permission. Maybe you’d get over it. But if your new roommate was particularly annoying (or looked particularly delicious), maybe you wouldn’t get over it. Similarly, some animals are incapable of flourishing in multi-pet environments. Others may do fine with a *small *amount of competition. Animals also have individual personalities and habits. Some may only ever get along with their own species. etc, etc!

The trick is knowing your pets, knowing their personalities, and not trying to force a square pet:p into a round hole. My advice is to 1) stop adopting animals until you bring them into your home for a brief introduction first. And 2) adopt out any animals don’t get along well with the whole group. You can try to force them into submission, but this will not always work–especially with older animals who have difficulty adjusting to change.

As a workaround, you could try separating the troublemakers into discrete territories in the home. Maybe the dogs get the upstairs and don’t get to come downstairs, or isolate the pissy cat, or whatever is needed to keep the peace (sorry, I couldn’t keep all your animals straight).

Honestly, I think 5 pets is way too goddamn many for anyone who doesn’t have a barn and lots of farmland. But if you have a pretty big house, separating them into territories isn’t a bad way to live.

I do have a large 9 rm house*, a barn, many sheds and 100s of acres of fields and forest surrounding me so… 5 critters (well, 14 if you count the 9 chickens) isn’t really very much. Everyone can hang out for days and not run into anyone else (humans included;)) if they’re determined. Which is what Ren is doing. He did this before with all the other new arrivals (George, Gracie, and Minou) but got over himself after a month at the max (George) so I reasonably imho assumed he would this time as well. It’s been six months now so I’m thinking it’s time to intervene a bit.

*two houses actually. Old and new. Connected by a door so temporary separation is easily doable (and has been done). But it can’t be permanent for various reasons.

I would get the electronic collar (they are not shock collars - they use the same technology as a TENS unit) and teach Niko that the cats are yours and he is not to bother them. If the collar doesn’t come with instructions on how to find Niko’s working level, let me now and I’ll walk you thru it.

E-collars don’t require any more expertise than any other training tool, as long as the person holding the button isn’t a sadist or something. It will take some time tho, since Niko is older but it is certainly doable. My cat is a former feral and every time a new dog came to the place (which used to be frequent when I was doing board and train) she’d hide upstairs for awhile, but get over it when she learned that yes, this dog too is not allowed to chase cats. Especially MY cat! :smiley:

It may also be that Ren is sensitive to Niko’s barking, and when you get a handle on that he may be OK with him? It doesn’t sound like he’s a danger to the cats so if you want to go to the time and expense, I say go for it!

I apologise for using the somewhat provocative term “shock collar” in my earlier post - I was tired and having a brain fart! E-collar is definitely the better term. But I respectfully disagree with curlcoat in that you need to hve some guidance - or at very least do some serious reading - before using an aversive such as an e-collar. Mainly to get the timing down, and also to understand that positive reinforcement is an important complement to any sort of aversive training. (I’m not at all opposed to e-collars, pinch or choke collars, etc - but I stand my my statement that any of these methods can backfire, depending on the user and also the temperament of the dog.)

slumtrimpet, after reading your other responses I think this is definitely workable. Especially given the space you have, and the fact that Niko isn’t doing more than being noisy and excitable, which isn’t a great match with some cats. Many times a dog’s behaviour is triggered by a particular cat (and sometimes vice-versa) and while many behaviours can be learned, hard-wiring can be tougher to overcome. But on reflection it sounds like Niko is just being exciteable/triggered, and not potentially lethal.*

Teach Niko that Ren is YOUR cat. Like your shoes, bed, food, etc. Whatever other items you’ve set rules for. And YOUR stuff must not be messed with. Shelties and other herding dogs often feel the need to control unruly critters in their environment (and bark loudly and frequently - working Shelties were often selectively bred for their barking) or by whatever other means they were bred to control critters or livestock. So it is not Niko’s fault. :slight_smile:

*I am being perhaps overly cautious. One of my three dogs grew up with cats and is fine with my two current house cats. However he is territorial and extremely high prey drive. A couple of months ago a feral cat wandered into my yard and that dog (I was out in the yard with him at the time) literally bit the cat in two pieces about as fast as I could blink. It was horrible. But of course to that dog, a cat is a skunk is a possum is a bug, as long as it’s not “mine” and in the house. Inside, he is neutral and often affectionate with the house cats. Outside, strange cats are a: intruders and b: (mainly) fun prey; moving stuffie toys he can chase and bite.

ANY tool and method can backfire. I’ve been using an e-collar in training for decades, since back when they really were shock collars, and have seen more dogs become training problems with clickers than e-collars. Sure, anyone who hasn’t used any tool before is far better off with some guidance (which I offered) but again, true of anything. People need to get over the idea that an e-collar is some evil pain tool that only highly experienced people should be using. If we can trust people with TENS units, we can trust them with an e-collar.

Thanks for all the advice curlcoat and cheroptera. Much appreciated.

I can see where you were a little freaked out, cheroptera, after having that happen!

Niko doesn’t seem to have a huge prey drive, more of a huge herding drive that he’s not sure how to express. He gets the same gleam in his eye and starts his circling when he spots a lone chicken. I’m glad we don’t have any sheep. I watched him tonight with Stimpy and that’s what he did, circled and circled. Stimpy was not impressed. It’s annoying. :slight_smile:

My husband was out walking with the dogs this evening and stupid* Ren came up and rubbed up against Niko (dogs were on leashes - good thing too because some dumb bunny decided to stop in the middle of the trail and wiggle it’s nose at them a bit earlier).

I almost think if I can stop the random barking Ren might come around on his own, or at least with not too much coaxing. But after reading that link you posted, cheroptera, I suspect that’s easier said than done. :frowning:

*I only call them ‘stupid’ because they’re not doing what I want them to. I’m very much aware that they’re not stupid, they’re just being critters that I care very much about and wish would all just get along.

Are you scolding Niko any time he lunges at the cat? It doesn’t really say. Have you trained him to shut up when you tell him to?

I’ve had a parade of cats and dogs through here. My solution to getting them to peacefully co-exist is to ignore them and let them figure it out. Feed everybody in the same room and the same time. Give everybody a treat after you eat dinner, all at once. Tell the dog to shut up if he’s annoying you. Use your control voice (because the cats will ignore you, so you have to talk to the dog). Let them come and go as they please. I’d probably drag Ren back inside and shut up the pet door and just make everyone deal with each other for a week.

I never intervene in my animals’ personal relationships unless there’s actual bloodshed. There will be growling. Maybe some swatting or snapping. But it’s ok - and frankly, I don’t give a damn - if they don’t like each other. If Ren doesn’t want to be bounced at, I’d leave it up to Ren to convey that message to the dog on his own. The message you need to convey to Ren is “Your new brother is staying. Deal with it.”

They’ll get over it but only with time and regular exposure.

I like the way you think, Merneith :smiley:
That method has always worked for me in the past too. I’ve never had quite as stubborn of a cat as Ren though.
We have tried to ‘train’ Niko not to bark so much. Getting him to stop altogether is probably impossible without doing something drastic (like a bark collar or a barkectomy). He is a pure bred sheltie after all.
Locking the whole gang in the house until they figure it out is definitely an option we’ve considered. Haven’t done it yet for any length of time because it’s so annoying (for the humans) to have to let the dogs in and out and having to listen to the cats bitch and moan (mostly Minou and she’s very verbal).
And I’ve certainly made it clear to Niko that the cats are off limits. When I’m right there to reprimand him, he pretty much stays away (so he knows), still has that gleam in his eye though. When I’m not around, well… pretty sure he reverts.

So… maybe a combination of stuff? Get the e-collar, use it to train him to stop trying to herd the old cats and maybe to minimize the barking. Then drag Ren back inside and lock them all together until they work it out. Clip Ren’s claws for the time being so Niko doesn’t lose an eye.
?

I can see the virtue of Mernieth’s “let them work it out and deal” method, but on the other hand, is it fair to force a pet into continued contact with another animal he is clearly uncomfortable with? Or to remain in a home where he’s not that happy?

It sounds as if you have the space and resources to work out a happy balance, though. If Ren’s claws are a concern, there’s a product called soft paws, although I don’t know if that would be a good idea for cats who go outside.

Long time ago I trained an excessively barky dog to bark less, by teaching her to “speak” on command. It sounds counterintuitive, but after a few woofs I’d praise and reward her, while redirecting her attention and quieting her down. After a while she would bark (SKWIRL! SKWIRL!SKWIRL! LOOK! SKWIRL!) just a few times then pause and look to me for approval. It sort of broke the mindless, unending volley of barks by providing her with an internal off (or at lease pause) switch. She wasn’t a Sheltie though. :slight_smile:

Oh god, please don’t say squirrel. That even sets off Gracie and she’s usually a pretty quiet dog.
Strangely enough, she hates big birds. (she’s the sheltie/king charles spaniel mix) Has kept our yard free of crows, ducks, geese, eagles, vultures, hawks and airplanes for four years now. Sometimes she gets confused and does battle with the chickadees, but mostly it’s the big stuff she hates. Niko, the pure bred sheltie, doesn’t care in the least about big birds. He just wants to herd things.
Spent some quality time with Ren out in the yard today. Lots of treats and pets and skritches. He’s still skittish about being near the house but seems to be hanging out a little closer lately. I think he might be sleeping on the front porch chairs when no one’s around. I don’t want to force anything until I get Niko under control.
Those softpaws are real purty, but I think just clipping them temporarily will be fine - just a little bit off the tip. I’ve done it before when they were kittens (Ren liked to climb the wallpaper in our rented digs*) and they grow back quickly.

*“Mom, the kitty is climbing the walls”, was dead on accurate.

Cats who are allowed to roam free only live for an average of 5 years, so you won’t have to fret over this much longer. Then you can get another and start all over. Or you could revoke the cat to someone who would love it indoors for a lot longer and less stressful lifetime. It can’t possibly be happy if it’s frightened enough it doesn’t come home.

Regarding having 5 pets… I’ve never understood how a non-wealthy person could afford that many. We just spent about $300 yesterday on a yearly vet trip for our dog. That doesn’t include his heartworm and flea preventative, dental, the occasional injury or illness ($700 when he crunched down half a CD when he was a young thing, got stung by a wasp one time, meds for kennel cough a couple times after boarding despite vaccinations, $500 for his bad knee pretty soon). And this is a tiny Chihuahua so we’re lucky we don’t have a big food bill or grooming to pay for. But Multiply that by 5 and we’d be in the poor house! I believe any pet decision needs to also include that kind of financial commitment, and unfortunately some ignore it. Not saying that’s the case with this OP. Just my experience from years of rescuing and fostering.

As for collars, they make anti bark collars that just emit a high pitched beep. I’ve used it for 2 fosters before. Worked brilliantly within the first 24 hours, and they no longer needed it after the first week.

At the very least, build some cat walkways or shelves that it can maneuver through the house with in peace from the dog. It is suffering from lack of personal space.

Rehome, not revoke.