Jodi –
Since it appears you have not read the GD which got jab all hot and bothered, here are some relevant quotes. (BTW, I apologize if I’m wrong about you having read the thread.)
ROBGRUVER Said, in answer to a handful of questions I’m not quoting:
FREYR said, also in answer to a handful of questions I’m not quoting:
(quotes modified by me to correct spelling errors because I’m an English Weenie and can’t help myself.)
That’s everything that was specifically said about magic(k) up to the point at which jab posted this pit thread and linked to it. Note that one person said he “could throw fireballs around” (and I rather got the impression that he was referring to this in no sort of literal fashion), and the other said, specifically, that it is not that sort of thing at all.
I guess I’m frustrated mostly about the fact that jab apparently latched on to this one statement, and decided that made all of us ignorant. I think, Jodi, that you and I have found each other rational and polite for the most part, even when we disagree, and am only bringing this up to clarify a point you appear to have missed. Mea maxima culpa if I’m mistaken.
Gee, I can’t remember the last time I saw a Pit thread grow so fast! I think it was the one where someone (who does not deserve to be remembered) tried to flame DavidB and got reamed quite royally as the rest of us came to David’s defense.
If THEIR form of “magick” didn’t work, why should yours, o ye of little brain?
You’re right; I have no desire to waste my time learning meaningless, useless, ineffective shit.
I DO realize that. That’s why I asked the question “I guess you don’t believe that?”
Lemme ask you something: How can Wicca be valid when even its believers can’t agree on what it is?
(And if Hastur really has decided not to come back, let someone else answer that question, if you can.)
“Bend over and receive your destiny,” huh? Get on your knees and receive yours.
Hey, Cruncy, it wasn’t an attack, though, on a particular religion. In the “Wiccans and pagans…” sentence, Jews/Christians/Moslems/Hindus/etc. would be grouped into the “other morons” category.
jab - here are two possible answers to why Wiccans can’t agree on what “their” religion is.
Not every Pagan is a Wiccan. As Hastur mentioned in the other thread, he’s not Wiccan. Neither am I, although some of what I do when I’m “working” is drawn from reading I’ve done into Wicca.
Wicca is not a charismatic religion. Unlike Christians, Wiccans do not have one text, nor one religious leader (Jesus) to whom they look for how to worship. Frankly, just from what I’ve experienced in working with my CUUPs group it’s about as likely that all Pagans will agree on one thing as the sun will turn blue tomorrow. But since there’s no main leadership (like, say, the Pope), there’s no real group to schism away from, so each group develops individually while still holding many of the same core beliefs; in the power of the Universe, in a multiplicity of faces of the divine…I’m sure there are other things, but I can’t think of any others off the top of my head.
I’m wiccan. I don’t believe in magic. Wicca is my religion. It is the way I see god and the way I worship god. Nothing more and nothing less. Thanks for calling me a moron though.
Look at pictures of atoms here. Explore the “STM Image Gallery” for other pictures of atoms. (“STM” means “Scanning Tunnelling Microscope.”) These images are like photographs; they are not CGI. Not only can scientists image atoms, they can even move them about to make pictures and letters.
I’ve only been following this thread cursorily. I once practiced ritual magic myself and hung out with a lot of people who did. I wish I had more time to go over all of the arguments and counter arguments. But it seems that we have a definite problem even coming up with a definition of magic that we all can agree on. Most seem to be too all-encompassing, such as “magic is the art of altering reality.” Is there any way we cam come up with a definition that makes magic unique from all other ways of altering reality?
These, IMO, are irreconcilable: “Magic is defined as altering reality.” “Magic is an extension of faith.” If something has the power to alter concrete reality – to a greater extent than, say, a change in attitude reaping its own rewards – then it is something other than (and greater than) an extension of faith. Faith is faith: “Firm belief in something for which there is no proof.” That belief does not allow us to do anything – perform magic, cast spells – beyond to live and act faithfully (i.e., in light of that faith). If a person asserts that they can alter reality through the performance of magic, then my response remains: So let’s see it. If you assert (as you appear to) that magick (with or without a “k”) is merely ritual, then that’s a whole 'nother thing altogether. That is not “magic” as the word is generally understood. I understand your problem: it’s the same one Wiccans face with the word “witch,” which many also want to be defined differently than it is generally defined. But there you have it.
I realize that not every Pagan/Wiccan is claiming to be able to do actual magic – I imagine you might wish to distance yourself from those who do, just as I would wish to distance myself from Christians who claim that Christianity is manifested through things I personally consider nonsense, from homophobia to snake handling to boycotting Harry Potter. But it is the ONE who made the (IMO ridiculous claim) who prompted the thread. If JAB attempts to piss all over your religion generally – and that would not surprise me – then you may invite him to step over a cliff. But so long as he limits his disdain to those who claim to be able to do that which is manifestly NOT do-able, then I think – to that limited extent and no further – he has a point.
Oh, c’mon. That’s too easy. First, “valid” is a judgment-call, no answer to which is likely to satisfy you. Second, if myriad people hold the same belief (Christ is the son of God; there is a universal life force; there is no god but Allah, the One God; whatever), then the fact that they disagree on other aspects does not make that paramount belief more or less “valid,” since it exists independent of anything else that might or might not be believed as well. I like ice cream but not cake. Bob likes cake but not cookies. Sue likes cookies but not ice cream. The statement “we all like dessert” is still a valid one. Third, even if the beliefs are entirely different, which they are not, they do not become more or less “valid” for sharing a label – more confusing, maybe; less valid, no – any more than “part” as in what you do with your hair and “part” as in what you play in the theater becomes an “invalid” word for having inconsistent definitions. If you want to know what Wicca is to DOGSBODY, ask her. Same with FREYR. The fact that you are unlikely to get the same answer does not make their beliefs more or less “valid.” As if you were in charge of validity, anyway.
I do believe he was just answering to a post that asked for proof of atoms or some such. No need for you to get all snippy about it.
As for pictures of happiness, love, compassion or charity…
Well, those things may be pretty important to you, as a human and all, but they are pretty subjective things, only meaningfull because they are chemical reactions, or occurances in your brain that cause the illusion of such things. Atoms appear to exist independent of humans, therefore are not subjective to our existance.
Comparing them to love or compassion is not(IMHO) valid.
Yeah, well like I said, it’s been cleared up since the OP. I took it in a way that jab1 didn’t mean. He is referring to the people who take it literally, but I think it was his listing of specific religions instead of just leaving it as people who believe in magic(k) in general is what’s getting everyone’s panties in a bunch.
In general, I agree with jab1. I’m a Christian, but if I get sick I want a doctor, not a prayer circle. Prayers are nice and appreciated, but I don’t depend on that to heal me. And those people who handle poisonous snakes? No thanks, I’ll pass. If I want to test my faith by risking death, why not leap from a building and pray for the ability to fly? Cuz it’s fuckin stupid, that’s why. Crystals are nice to look at, but I’ve never used one to cure me. The only thing I use magnets for are keeping notes on my refrigerator.
I think the main problem here is not so much that jab1 doesn’t believe in magic, but that he specifically listed Wiccans and pagans whereas the Jews/Christians/Moslems/Hindus/etc can read the “other morons” part and say, “Oh, well he’s not talking about my religion. He means those other religions, those morons.”
It may have been best to leave religion out of it and just focus on the magic bit, since just because there’s a general religion doesn’t mean everyone believes the same thing in that relgion.
I’m Christian, but I am most definitely not Catholic, Mormon, Baptist, Fundie, Presbeterian, Amish, etc. I think for myself. Unlike some Christians, I don’t take the Bible literally because I realize books are written using symbolism and metephors. I don’t think the Earth is only 6000 years old. I think the government should stay out of a woman’s right to have an abortion. I voted for Gore in the last election.
So when you hear I’m a Christian, not knowing that other stuff about me, is it fair to automatically assume I’m a pro-life Republican who thinks God created everything in only 6 Earth days and that since I’m a male I only have 11 ribs because God took a rib from Adam (although I can feel and count 12 for myself) and that everyone who doesn’t think as I do is going to hell?
That’s not a fair assessment at all, if all you know about me is that I call myself a Christian.
Yet *jab1 did the same sort of generalization with the pagans and the Wiccans, when he specifically named them in the OP. As I said earlier, other religions can use that “other morons” line as a way outthinking that he meant other religions, not them. Wiccans and pagans, however, don’t have that rationalization, since they were singled out. So now, even though jab1 was referring to only those who take magic literally, others are offended because of the generalization.
A) This is a misrepresentation of medicine. While there is a such a thing as a reverse placebo affect with mildly effective drugs, antibiotics are going to kill bacteria whether you believe in them or not. Ether is going to knock you out whether you believe in it or not.
Earlier in the quote above it says “magic is changing the world around us. Flying in an airplane is magic.” That, in my opinion, is defining “magic” so broadly as to be a useless idea, but if that is all you mean then we are arguing semantics. However, he then says “does my drawing of the energies help?” That is a direct claim of altering the real world through invisible, unmeasurable forces. That, my friend, is a claim requiring evidence. It is no longer a matter of faith, but a matter for proof.
Let me say that I was not arguing or attaching LunaSea as she described herself. I will admit I am confused as to how you could doubt the existence of a goddess or similar entity and still thank that entity for help, but that is a personal matter. She is making no claims that I don’t feel can be explained scientifically.
Now, have people claimed that their magic gives them the ability to do things not explainable by science (i.e. the supernatural or paranormal)? Yes:
robgruver:
These clearly imply that robgruver feels he can cast spells that have direct effect on others. Now, if that means his spell would be shotting a gun at someone or flipping them off, causing emotional hurt, I’d appreciate the clarification.
From Freyr:
Here, Freyr takes magic beyond simply being a personal force and expands it into something that has an effect on the world around them. This is a claim to be proven.
Many pagans/Wiccans/Christians/Fans of N’Sync may not believe the things we are arguing against in this thread, but MANY, MANY people who claim those faiths (and others) do believe in invisible, immeasurable forces that effect and alter the world based solely on a person’s (or thing’s) whim.
All I am saying, is that if you are going to make a claim that your faith has an affect on my reality, you are going to have to back it up.
Here is my anecdotal story (popular among people who want evidence, without rigor):
On a road trip I was in an organic grocery in Santa Fe, New Mexico. A woman we saw in the store was swinging a plumbbob over every item she was considering for purchase. Presumably something in the way it swung told her whether to buy (all I can say is that it was rejecting the granola options like crazy). If that is all she does, I’ll leave her in peace. But if she were to claim that her swinging that plumbbob warded off evil spirits making the food safer for consumption by anybody, that is when I’m going to demand some proof (something more rigorous than a testimonial, “I ate her Plumbbobbed Granola and haven’t died yet”).
How utterly Mengelean! So it is the chemical reaction, and not the subjective experience, that is meaningful. If you represent science or politics, it is time that humans become afraid. Very afraid.
I am not Wiccan, but I do have friends who are and have read up on it. Also, maybe it’s just the city I live in and the group of friends I hang around with, but being Pagan is pretty darn acceptable, and not faced with scorn for “magic”.
Wiccans, correct me if I’m wrong, but this is my understanding:
-Magic (magick, whatever the fuck you want to call it, it really doesn’t matter) is a form of prayer, rituals to attune youself with the cycle of seasons, to celebrate special events, to change your mindset about things, to make use of the power of suggestion.
-Not all Wiccans believe the same thing
And I have yet to meet any Pagan who sincerely believes they can throw a fireball or make someone fall in love with them.
And for those of you who have very little contact with actual Paganism in their real lives: it’s a religion, not a side show.
And also OBFUSCATRIST, with the clarification that there is a huge difference between the Judeo-Christian faith-based belief that religion can have an indirect or intercessory impact (i.e., the power of prayer to either make you feel stronger or to call upon God to actually make you stronger) and the Wiccan belief that individuals (as opposed to God) have some supernatural power to alter or “call upon” the universe and the natural world. These are not IMO reconcilable, at least so far as both Christianity and Wicca are generally understood.
LIB – It is pretty clear to me that the distinction that AMEDEUS was drawing is between the subjective/unprovable and the objective/provable, with his (her?) point obviously being that the two are not comparable – which, almost by definition, they are not. To thereafter compare him (her?) to Mengele based upon a word-choice (“meaningful” when “relevant” might have worked better) strikes me as darn near indefensible. I know you are a Christian and are passionate in defending your faith – and everyone’s right to have faith – but meeting innocuous posts with comparisons to viscious Nazi mass-murders seem a tad over the line. Really.
