sub-terranian termites and my pest control guy

Factual Questions
1

Recently we (wife and I) had our annual pest control treatment at our home. This treatment involved spraying the baseboards with insecticide and attic with a borax powder- this worked very well for us last year, and is guarateed by the pest company - if any more bugs are seen, they will come out and re-treat.

While the techinician was out there, he dug in some mulch close to the house and showed me what he said were sub-terranean termite larvae. I don’t really doubt that’s what they are - they seem to match the pictures on the Internet.

He immediately launched into a sales pitch, first saying that the treatment would cost $850, but that he would call the office and “try to negotiate” it down. 10 minutes later he tells me it will cost $700 for the baiting system, but I should also treat for drywood termites (he initially indicated they are rare in my area, and he saw no evidence of them) for a total cost of $1300.

Now, I know these guys make a commision on the additional services that they sell. I told him that I wanted to research the matter first - from what I’ve always understood, these things live in just about everybody’s yard in Florida, and finding larvae outside the house doesn’t necessarily mean that they are inside. I simply wanted to research my options first.

He then proceeded to make a big deal over my wanting to wait a few days, telling me that they could enter the house and destroy the wall they were close to in a matter of a days. I ask him to please treat the house with the standard treatment, and I’ll get back to him about the termites. I then return inside.

A half-hour later his boss shows up, wearing a “termite expert” nametag. He tries to sell me the system for a discounted rate of $500, but this is a one-day only rate that he will not offer later. I ask him why not, but he can’t provide an answer. He tells me it will be a big mistake if I don’t buy it from him today.

Needless to say, I don’t plan on using this company due to their scare/sales tactics. I would, however, like to learn more about sub-terranian termites.

As I mentioned above, according to several on-line sources I read, they are very common in just about everyone’s yard in Florida. Baiting systems can be used to kill local colonies, reducing the risk that they’ll enter the house. I would certainly like to prevent this from happening, so my questions are:

— how to I ascertain, short of tearing up drywall, if these things are already in the house (I’ve been told that there is no way to know until you see evidence (bodies, shed wings, chewed wood, etc), at which point it would be too late.

— do the baiting systems really work?

— if so, why can’t I install these things myself? There is a local wholesaler who will sell them to the public, and it seems like a pretty simple system to install/monitor

— anyone else have any relavant experience?

Thanks!

2

http://www.epestsupply.com/termite_baiting.htm

3

Bad news. You can’t. There are various methods that can be used as a guide, such as moisture or temperature probes, but they are far from 100%. By the time these things detect termites they have already done damage. Less than if you waited for things to start falling to bits, but still enough to potentially cost thousands.

The best method is the use of sniffer dogs, but odds are no one in the are has any. They’re fairly rare.

Well yes. If you saw any of those signs with subterranean termites your house would already have fallen to pieces. These things are very clean, and keep to themselves inside sheltered runways. The first evidence is going to be seeing the runways, but they are most likely inside the walls.

Sometimes. It requires a good operator with a lot of patience for these things to work. Basically they nee o be set with unpoisoned bait to attract the scouts, and then the bait added afterwards. Knowing where to place the bait stations and how many to use is a bit of an art form that requires reasonable local knowledge.

You could give it a go, but it’s a risk. If you don’t place enough bait stations in the right area the scouts may never find them. If you disturb them too much the termites will abandon the bait station, making you think you have eliminated them. If you don’t have enough stations then you can destroy all the workers at the few stations that are found, causing them to be abandoned without poisoning the nest.

Is there any good reason why you can’t/won’t use poison to create a barrier? It only lasts for a few years, but it should be fairly cheap and garaunteed to work.

Whatever you decide to do, I wouldn’t use this firm. They are giving you the hard sell. The worst termites in the world won’t do significantly more damage in a few days.

There is no reason to get drywood treatment if there is no evidence. The only treatment for hidden drywood termites is fumigation, which I assume is not being considered at that price. So what do they say they will do for the drywood termites for $600? Do they intend to randomly treat bits of timber that show no signs of termite activity? Ask this question is you ever speak to them again. I’d love to know the answer.

The fact that they seem to be involved in a Dutch auction is also a bad sign.

4

Thanks, Nametag, for the link - it looks helpful.

And Blake, great info. Based on the link above, it appears that chemical barriers are no longer used, and are banned in most places. I’m open to all ideas, so I’ll investigate this also.

Regarding doing it myself, I’m probably going to try it. I don’t think I’d trust this pest control company, anyway - the original tech they sent out was a pretty wet behind the ears kid, and he was the one going to do the install. Definitely not a “good operator with a lot of patience.”
Regarding the drywood, they did not specify exactly what their treatment would be. I have no idea.

I’d definitely consider paying a professional, as long as they would warrant their work via structural damage coverage if the situation got worse. No one seems to want to do this.

5

A few months ago, I stepped out onto my front porch to see a swarm of termite breeders taking flight. I, of course, panicked.

I called a highly-recommended exterminator service here in Austin. I told them what I’d seen. They asked if I had any of the clay “tunnels” going up into the house- I checked, but there weren’t any. They said don’t worry about it. Apparently, termites are very common in gardens and the like, and there’s no need to worry unless you see the tunnels.

6

Hmm, i don’t think we have any tunnels… do you know if such tunnels, for sub-terranean termites, would be above ground and visible w/out digging?

Did he describe what they might look like?

Thanks

7

I think what he means are that subterranean termites live in the ground and can only eat wood touching the ground. If the wood is above the ground (say, on a foundation), they build tunnels out of mud. If you find these tunnels (look for a line of mud headed upward on the outside of the foundation concrete), then you have a termite problem.

I don’t know if lack of tunnels is a foolproof test (if any wood makes a path from the ground to the house, the termites will eath through that), but it is a good indication you’re not infested.

Drywood termites are another area. They aren’t up here in the north, so I don’t know much about them, but they do not make these tunnels.

8

Termites are evil!

Mud tunnels can be on either the foundation wall on the outside of your house, or the foundation wall on the inside of your house under your house if you have a crawl space. They’re very obvious if you have them. However, you might not see the tunnels- there could just be some small holes where the termites have chewed.

The best way to know is to go around your house and push on the wood in several spots. If termites have damaged the wood, it will be hollow and will cave under pressure.

This is mostly evident on wood near the ground, and sometimes in wood around the openings of a garage.

As far as treatment and protection, we use the Centricon system. It’s great, non-obtrusive, and odorless- not to mention it’s guaranteed for the life of the house. And, if termite damage is found after installation, the company will repair the damage free of charge. It’s a bit pricey (we paid $1400), but it’s worth the investment. I think our yearly fee is something like $200 for the annual maintenance.

Hope this helps. Good luck!

9

I had no idea termites were this big of a problem. Are there many in the Chicago area? I’ve never known anyone to have them up here.

10

Chemical barriers are still widely used. From the link above “Long lasting termite pesticides are no longer available and have been banned in most cases. Since the currently available chemical barrier pesticides are very short lived, most with half lives of only 9 months (point in which half of the chemical is gone) most not even lasting 3 years, the concept of using a chemical barrier treatment as a the sole means of controlling subterranean termites is fast becoming a thing of the past.”

So chemical barriers are still used, they just don’t last the lifetime of your house as they did when organochlorines were used.

Looking fore runways is a very inefficient way of identifying termites. If there is any wood in contact with the ground they often enter the house through the wood. And I mean through the wood, not over it. No runways will be seen. So if you have timber pylons, stumps or foundations and no ‘ant caps’ there is no point at all looking for runways.

If you have metal or concrete foundations you might be lucky. They tend to build as little exposed runway as possible. A few inches between the ground and the wall cavity or the nearest piece of timber depending on the type of foundation.

11

You know what just occurred to me? My house is a concrete block design with a cement foundation. Do I really even need to worry about these things?

Blake, from what you described above, it does not appear that they would have any real point of entry. The only wood that I know of is in the interior non-load bearing walls and on the interior side of each of the perimeter block walls (and the roof trusses.)

Is it even possible (or at all likey) to get an infestation in a concrete block house?

Kalhou, not sure about Chicago, but from what I understand, you can’t dig a hole in the ground in a woody area in Florida without finding them. They seem to be very prevalent where I live, its just a matter of keeping them out of the house.

12

Yes you’ve still got to worry. They will happilly build runways up the concrete and onto the wood.

13

was in the renovation business for a long time and i repaired a lot of termite and carpenter ant damage. termites are everywhere and no building is safe.

active termites look like very tiny grains of rice and can not be exposed to oxygen. they build the mud tunnels to get over concrete and into your house where they are looking for moisture. they actually eat the wood, hollowing it out from the inside and are impossible to see doing this. jab suspected infestations with an ice pick. if termites are there the timber will collapse easily.

termites nest outside in the ground in huge numbers and constantly move back and forth into your home. they usually stay at ground level eating your floor joist.

pest companies will scare the hell out of you. find a local pest “supply” company that will sell you the treatment and explain what to look for. farm supply stores sometimes are helpful.

large black carpenter ants do much more damage and only go where the wood is damp, from leaks or lack of air circulation. they do not eat the wood but chew it up and nest in it. you would not believe the damage i have seen from carpenter ants in ohio homes. they will destroy wood on third floors climbing up inside wood columns. unlike termites they are very visible.

14

Active termites look like termites. They never look anything like rice. Depending on the species the adult workers and soldiers may be considerably larger than a grain of rice.

I know of no common species where the adults could be described as being like tiny grains of rice. Drywood termites produce frass (basically poop) that looks like tiny grains of rice, but this doesn’t apply to the much more common subterranean termites.

Termites require oxygen to survive. Without it they suffocate just like every other animal. Exposure to oxygen is no more dangerous to termites than any other animal, people included.

The workers of most drywood termite species are sensitive to dehydration, hence the reason why they remain in covered galleries with contact with water.

If they are building mud tunnels they are subterranean termites. And subterranean termites don’t enter houses looking for water. Quite the opposite. They need to maintain the runways contacts with the soil to bring moisture into the runways form the ground. They enter buildings seeking food, not moisture. The ground is invariably moister than any building.

The only possible exception to this is where leaking pipes are wetting the woodwork. In these cases termites can establish a colony with no contact with the ground, and will leave no visible runways. However even in these cases the critters don’t enter houses looking for water. They just happen to fly into a good area.

Only in the most severe cases is this true. Once damage has reached this level then it’s going to be widespread. Termites can be active for many years and have done sufficient damage to warrant a house being condemned before any piece of timber reaches this level.

They usually consume any timber they can come into contact with. They don’t distinguish between floor joists and roof trusses of the same timber. Floor joists may be more susceptible because this is the first timber they contact, but by no stretch is it usual for a termite colony to confine itself in such a manner.

15

you are confused my friend. you are comparing swarming termites with the active wood eating termites.

when the termites are in your home, eating the wood, they look like very small grains of rice…i have seen millions of them.

the point about termites eating floor joist was to compare them to carpenter ants. normally when you discover termites they will be eating the floor joists. yes they eat any type of wood i have even found them in a stack of old newspapers. but the subterianian ones we have here i have never seen on a second floor.

16

http://www.securitypest.com/termite_photos.htm

shows photos of termites. workers are white, look like a grain of rice. the photo shown is quite closeup.

17

Sigh.

Biker, those things look like termites. They look like rice in the same way that cockroaches do.

Look at the sizes of subterranean termites in the US:

From Terminix site:
“Nymphs range up to 5/8-inch. Soldiers range up to 3/4-inch in length”

Then compare that to a grain of rice: “Short grain rice: less than 5 mm long ( 0.20 inch )
Medium grain rice: 5 to 6 mm long ( 0.20 to 0.24 inch )”
http://www.geocities.com/cerealpage/ricepg2.html .
So a termite nymph is .6 of an inch, while a standard grain of rice is about .2 of an inch.

Tht page also has a good picture of a rice grain for you to compare to termite shapes.

There is no way on God’s green Earth that anyone could possibly believe that ‘active termites look like very tiny grains of rice’. Even If they looked anything like rice in general shape then they would look like absolutely massive grains of rice.

normally when you discover termites they will be eating the floor joists.

And as i said above, there is nothing normal about this. Termites eat whatever and wherever they like. They may be discovered anywhere. In my experience floor joists are the last place they are liekly to be discovered because people don’t look at the damn things.

18

well i had a nice handfull of them last week, wish i could have sent them to you, then you would understand why i say they look like small grains of rice.

termite trucks run around town with these giant flying insects on top of them and people think that is what termites look like. that is only in the swarming stage. the termites eating your house do not look like that. they are very small, white and grub looking.

look at other web pages of termite photos, you will see what i am talking about.

19

http://ohioline.osu.edu/hyg-fact/2000/2092.html

Workers are wingless, white to grayish-white with a round, yellow-brown head and about 1/4 to 3/8 inch long.

Termites and ants are attracted to moisture.

These termites live in nests underground and tunnel up for food, which includes the wood understructure of homes.

20

“Workers are… 1/4 to 3/8 inch long.”

“Medium grain rice: 5 to 6 mm long ( 0.20 to 0.24 inch )”"

How exactly do these things "look like very tiny grains of rice’ again?

Look biker I know termites. I know what they look like, I know how big they are. I’ve provided refences to how big they are, as have you. I’ve provided references for rice size. Termites clearly don’t “look like very tiny grains of rice”.

Anyway, this isn’t making me any money. I’ve prvided the cites, I’ve pointed out where the errors are in you descriptions of termite behaviour, size etc.

I’ll leave it up to others to decide what to do to protect their houses.