Hey Tranquilis,
Just so you know I found this thread quite interesting and I agree with most of your points…and hypothisis of what actually happened (namely no collision). Question though, and I apologize if its a stupid one. If the rescue buoys are welded down, what good are they in the event of a true emergency? Can the weld be somehow broken from inside the sub?
Regarding your statements about aircraft losses in Bill Clinton’s undeclared war on Serbia: how much of this is actually coming from the military, and how much from the white house? Knowing Slick Willie’s obsession with his “legacy” whatever that might be, is it reasonable to suppose that he told the Joint Chiefs something like…“we are NOT going to take casualties…call them training accidents!”. My question: could this actually been gotten away with? and how long (after Bill leaves office) will this deception continue?
Not dumb at all: The buoys are essentially useless. In actuallity, the rescue bouys are an anacronism, and are usually only available for use during sea-trials and shake-downs.
On occasion, when going on ‘Super Secret Squirrel’ type missions, they’re somtimes removed completely.
There are other means on communicating with the surface, if anyone survives a sinking (at least in US boats), that are far more usefull. Examples include: Signal bouy (manually launched from within the sub), Flares & smoke (also manually launched), underwater telephone (modification of sonar, sometimes called ‘Gertrude’), the old-fashioned hammer on the hull, and others.
The emergency rescue bouy is outside the pressure hull, but is released by manual action from within the hull. The trouble is, the release mechanism can work loose under normal conditions, never mind the effect of a collision, and is attached to the boat by a very strong tether. Which is why they’re secured (welded down) before going anywhere operational. Imagine, if you will, a 55-gallon drum, 3/4 bright orange, the other 1/4 hidden by a hull-metal fairing, being dragged around the ocean like a giant fisherman’s bobber! That’s not precisely what you’d see, but reasonably close.
Absurd, no?
Sorry to hijack, but if the Glomar Explorer is in mothballs in the Carquinez Straights, what the hell is it doing drilling for Texaco in the Gulf Of Mexico - I was on it two weeks ago.
Or did they recycle the name?
Dunno: I saw her in the straights two years ago: Either she’s been put back into commision, or the name’s been recycled. Time for me to start digging into regestration papers…
Update to come…
She’s been recommisioned. I’d have never thought it, but I guess she was too well built to leave rust (although she sat for 20 years before someone found the money).
http://www.casgen.com/pr/pr970004.htm
Oh, and my memory is defective: I was in the Vallejo area alomst three years ago, not two (had to check the credit card bills to remember the exact dates).
egkelly: Interesting question. The president is Commander-In-Chief of the military, so I don’t think that it really matters whether the statements came from the Pentagon or the White House.
As for what was done with the bodies of the KIA’s, I do remember hearing about a few accidents that occured during the war or soon afterwards. One was reported as taking place off the coast of Japan, and another one near Israel or thereabouts. I noticed that all of the incidents seemed to take place in far-flung locals and involved numerous deaths, so it’s possible that these “accidents” were to cover up casualties. Remember, however, that most of the bodies would have landed in Serb-controlled territory. They might have listed them as MIA and told the Serbs to keep the bodies. The military doesn’t exactly bust its ass tracking down the fate of MIA’s or POW’s (it was Jesse Jackson that got those 3 Army Rangers released), so MIA status might be considered a long-term solution as far as the military is concerned.
I hope that George W. Bush will expose at least part of this charade when he enters office. We probably won’t know the full story until after all of the generals involved have retired.
Check the kinds of aircraft involved, and the service affiliation of the deceased: You can gain a lot of info by the correlation.
Fer example: 10 Army Rangers die in a CH-47 crash: Probably legit. 10 Rangers buy it in a SH-60 crash: Time to dig deeper. {CH-47 is a standard Army transport, SH-60 is a Navy bird} This doesn’t mean a mis-match signals cover-up, but it does indicate something unusual that bears investigation.
It does happen that training exercises go bad, and our helos crash with depressing regularity: Partly due to screw-ups, and partly due to the hazardous nature of training realistically for war. When a chopper goes down, usually everyone onboard is killed or injured. Helo crashes over water are almost always completely fatal.
Also: Try and determine the home unit of the deceased, and where their unit is currently deployed. Again, a large discrepancy suggests a need for further info. It still doesn’t mean, necessarily, a cover-up, as military units ‘loan out’ bits and pieces all over the place (Ex: My SIL’s squadron is in Georgia, but more than half her unit is currently in Saudi Arabia).
The Freedom of Information Act is a powerful tool for gaining more info, but if you go that route, be prepaired for a long slog, as you’re going to be dealing with a massive bureaucracy.
What you are implying is beyond belief! If such a deception were to be exposed, I am certain it would mean the absolute end of any “reputation” or “legacy” that Clinton has left!
I cannot imagine that junior level officers would go along with such a horrible stunt-do you mean to tell me that the officers selected to break the bad news 9to the families) would go along with this?
Also, how long could such a deception be covered up-you would think a person of the moral stature of (Gen. Colin powell) would not stand for such a thing!
(shaking head in disbelief!)
Colin Powell was the initial investigating officer on the Mai Lai(Sp?) Massacre in Viet Nam. He gave the Army a clean bill.
Hundreds of civilians were killed by US troops in a massacre in South Korea during the inital North Korean attack. The Army just now 'fessed-up.
In Desert Storm, an officer commanding an armor unit gunned down one of our own men after the target had been identified as likely to be US troops, and a cease-fire order issued. He has been reported as trying to convince witnesses to collude with him on the cover-up. Medals were issued, citing ‘heroism’ during an assault on the target, which was already held by US forces for about 12 hours. It required Congressional hearings to bring the truth out (There was a TLC or History Channel special on this incident).
Shall I continue?
Don’t get me wrong: I’ve served this country well and long, but I don’t trust the ‘brass’(collectively) any farther than I can throw them. I trust indivduals (each at face-value, until I know them better) , and I trust the system (It’s flawed, but it usually works in the end).