Suck it! Boy Scouts of America and the Mormon Church!

[Miller]

@x-ray_vision

How so? There’s a pledge that clearly includes an endorsement of religion and I gave my reasoning why. How is that looking for something that’s not there?

The fact that no one is apparently required to recite it is kind of a point against you, there.

[x-ray_vision]

@Miller

The fact that no one is apparently required to recite it is kind of a point against you, there.

They’re not required to recite the pledge or they’re not required to say the word God? If the former, no one has bought that up and it’s irrelevant as to if the pledge endorses religion or not. If the latter, I already made my case concerning that issue. I don’t see the point against me either way.

[AClockworkMelon]

And what if there was a clause in the pledge that said “Glory be to Mohammed” or “Gays will burn in hell”? Oh, but wait! Those parts are optional.

The fact that God is mentioned in their pledge, in print, in all their handbooks or whatever, is pretty strong evidence that they’re a religious organizations, regardless of whether children have to recite it.

[MTCicero]

@PhiloVance

Add me to the list of those wondering about the Mormon connection. Do you have a link for that?

Just read this. It enumerates everything that is odious about the Mormons. Which is, you know, pretty much everything.

[cornflakes]

@Guinastasia

Uh, how can one be a “lesbian dad?” Isn’t that basically impossible?

That’s what her kids call her; I assume that it’s what she would prefer to be called.

[Shodan]

@Miller

The problem is leasing it at a special discounted rate that applies just to this one group.

Gotcha. Thanks.

Regards,
Shodan

[CalMeacham]

Just read this. It enumerates everything that is odious about the Mormons. Which is, you know, pretty much everything.

That’s not quite right. According to the book description:

In Under the Banner of Heaven, Jon Krakauer tells the story of the killers and their crime but also explores the shadowy world of Mormon fundamentalism from which the two emerged. The Mormon Church was founded, in part, on the idea that true believers could speak directly with God. But while the mainstream church attempted to be more palatable to the general public by rejecting the controversial tenet of polygamy, fundamentalist splinter groups saw this as apostasy and took to the hills to live what they believed to be a righteous life. When their beliefs are challenged or their patriarchal, cult-like order defied, these still-active groups, according to Krakauer, are capable of fighting back with tremendous violence.

…so it’s describing the behavior of a “splinter group”, not the behavior of the LDS mainstream.

INANALDS, but I’ve lived closely with many of them in the East and in SLC. “Odious” most of them are not.

[C3]

Under the Banner of Heaven focuses on a fundamentalist offshoot of the Mormon church, but it does go into some of the history, etc. of the LDS religion in general. A more objective look at the LDS is Mormon America.

[billfish678]

@CalMeacham

INANALDS, but I’ve lived closely with many of them in the East and in SLC. “Odious” most of them are not.

I know a gay couple that moved out to SLC a few years ago. Interestingly enough, the “gay mormon” community is VERY out and active out there. Sounds like there is a hike or ski trip or a party or some sort of outing (heh) every other day out there.

While I dont know how true this “Mormons take over BSA to stop teh gay” is or isnt, or how right or wrong it is, it certainly sounds like they are losing ground in their own home town.

[FloatyGimpy]

@x-ray_vision

They’re not required to recite the pledge or they’re not required to say the word God? If the former, no one has bought that up and it’s irrelevant as to if the pledge endorses religion or not. If the latter, I already made my case concerning that issue. I don’t see the point against me either way.

You are looking for something to be offended about, and are wrong about the Girl Scout pledge. Surely you can realize that it may have evolved over time? This is the Girl Scouts of Canada pledge:

I promise to do my best,
To be true to myself, my beliefs and Canada.
I will take action for a better world
And respect the Guiding Law.

Although it’s not been formally changed in the US, the word use and meaning have. Just because something once was, doesn’t mean it will always be.

[Acsenray]

Would the two of you agree that the following statement is true?

“The Girls Scouts is a religious organization, but it does not restrict membership on the basis of religion.”

[x-ray_vision]

@FloatyGimpy

You are looking for something to be offended about, and are wrong about the Girl Scout pledge. Surely you can realize that it may have evolved over time? This is the Girl Scouts of Canada pledge:

I’m not looking for anything, I’m not offended and I wasn’t wrong about anything. Sure, I realize some things evolve. We’re discussing how the pledge reads now. The Canadian pledge is irrelevant.

Although it’s not been formally changed in the US, the word use and meaning have.

Saying that the word “God” has a new meaning is bullshit. If it means whatever one wants it to, then pledging to serve It is meaningless.

[clnilsen]

@Algher

So, while I have tried to give some information here - this is the pit. There are assholes at the ACLU and its ilk who want only to destroy, and never look at the path of destruction that they leave while on their grand quest for justice. They never try to build, only destroy. They don’t create another youth organization to fill the gap, they just move onto the next target.

Algher - You bring a frickin’ tear to my eye with this one I agree so much. A salted earth policy only leaves ruined fields for everyone.

[cornflakes]

Same here. As much as these policies tick me off I don’t want to throw out the baby with the bathwater.

[AClockworkMelon]

Neither do I. I just want them to change the fucking pledge or stop being given legs up by the government.

[Shot_From_Guns]

@Algher

However, each lawsuit that has shut down some of the BSA’s activities has ONLY served to reduce opportunities for kids. NOBODY is stepping into the gap. To ignore this reality is ALSO a bad thing. I was trying to point out another cost of these lawsuits that nobody seems to care about.

I fully agree that the cost is there, but I, unlike you, am laying the blame firmly where it fucking belongs: at the door of the BSA. **They **are the ones who are refusing to change their policies to follow the law in order to continue to receive their special privileges.

But while I am fighting against some bigots on the inside, assholes like you are trying to destroy my organization all together. You will then sit around with your thumb up your ass and wonder why kids no longer have something to do this weekend.

Wrong-o. My cousin is now 30 and hasn’t lived in this city for over a decade, but his parents are *still *heavily involved in the BSA. Because it’s so important to them, over the years I’ve gotten to see what a great organization it *can *be. I just want it to actually live up to those ideals; or, if it refuses to change its regulations, admit that it doesn’t deserve the priviliges that are reserved for organizations that follow the government’s guidelines about discrimination.

There are assholes at the ACLU and its ilk who want only to destroy, and never look at the path of destruction that they leave while on their grand quest for justice. They never try to build, only destroy. They don’t create another youth organization to fill the gap, they just move onto the next target.

That’s not their job. If the BSA really cared about helping kids, they’d, gee, STOP FUCKING DISCRIMINATING. It’s not the government’s fault that it’s enforcing its regulations against discrimination. This whole mess could be solved at any time if the BSA would update their regulations or stop demanding priviliges to which their bigoted policies remove them from entitlement of.

@Algher

The BSA won’t change while under attack.

Tough shit. They’ve proven they won’t change when they’re *not *under attack, either. At least this way, there’s more public attention (and hopefully more pressure) and they don’t get priviliges to which they’re not entitled.

However, do not claim that there is not a cost to kids with each victory.

Of *course *there’s a cost to the kids. AND IT’S THE BSA’S FAULT.

I bet you’d spit on a cop who gave you a speeding ticket, too. :rolleyes:

[PhiloVance]

Whole thing sounds suspiciously like a conspiracy theory. :rolleyes:

[AClockworkMelon]

@PhiloVance

Whole thing sounds suspiciously like a conspiracy theory. :rolleyes:

lol

[BigT]

@x-ray_vision

I’m not looking for anything, I’m not offended and I wasn’t wrong about anything. Sure, I realize some things evolve. We’re discussing how the pledge reads now. The Canadian pledge is irrelevant.
Saying that the word “God” has a new meaning is bullshit. If it means whatever one wants it to, then pledging to serve It is meaningless.

Which is the point, you s888-for-brains. No pledge has a meaning unless you want it to. Do you think most people give a shit about what the pledge of allegiance means? No.

The fact that you think the words someone says have any actual meaning is based on magical thinking. Just because I say “I believe in God” doesn’t mean shit about what I believe. If I say I pledge to die for my country, it doesn’t mean shit. The only way it could mean something is if there was somebody watching me that could hold me to my word.

As an atheist, you don’t have that. Thus a pledge is completely and totally meaningless unless it is carried out. And the information given indicates that the Girl Scouts of America do not actually promote religion. The pledge is just there for historical reasons, and to keep from pissing off the religious.

The pledge, while not backed up by any action is MEANINGLESS. The problem with the Boy Scouts of America is that their pledge does seem to be backed by action.

You’re falling for the same magical thinking that makes them have to allow you to say what you want. If you are truly an atheist, what you pledge is no indication of what you truly believe. There’s no one there for you to have deceived, so you aren’t even lying. You’re just reciting meaningless word for a ritual.

The fact that religious people would get upset if the pledge originally said “All glory to Allah and his holy prophet Muhammed, peace be with him” is because they are religious, and actually have reason to believe that a meaningless pledge might warrant consequences.

[BigT]

@AClockworkMelon

Neither do I. I just want them to change the fucking pledge or stop being given legs up by the government.

And I say that, if they kept the pledge, but acted like a truly nondiscriminatory organization, I’d be fine with it. The theists get what they want, and the atheists don’t have to worry about it since the pledge is meaningless anyways.

Ceremonial deism is a great compromise.