Well, another baby dead. I can’t imagine the sorrow and self repuidation those parents feel. Would have educating them on proper safety helped. In this case probably. Trrying to sleep in a bed hardly big enough for two adults WITH a baby is just too stupid to believe. And it happened in a hospital.
At any rate, I doubt that I will change anyone’s mind on this or that my opinin will do a one eighty here. I’ve had a decent amount of meidcal and health education training in my past to have a good idea what is and isn’t effective as far as public health programs go. What I see happening if co-sleeping is more highly publicized is that te not so smart people will start doing it, without fully investigating the risks and precautions and the number of babies killed will go up. Sure there will be plenty of families who will successfully co-sleep, but I would predice many would not. So, co-sleeping becomes more popular, several babies die. The media gets their hands on a really juicy bit of news, like a rash of baby smotherings, and some fool lawyer or legislator gets it in him mind to sue someone or make a law against it. So in the end, many babies potentially could die, you co-sleepers get a bad rap, the public is scared to death to co-sleep, and some lawyer is richer and a legislator is voted into office on a no co-sleeping platform.
Okay so maybe I’m exaggerating with the lawyers and lagislators but the rest is 100% true and has happened several times in the past to well meaning people like yourselves.
You have convinced me co-sleeping has it’s benefits, but not that the general public is able to do so safely, or that the alternatives are that more difficult or harmful to the mother or baby.
I’ve had about enough of this conversation. I will still read the posts here, but unless I really see something compelling I will not respond again. Thanks for a lively and educating discussion. Its been a pleasure.
Ev
Well, I’ve been trying to post on this subject for 2 days now and I’ve finally figured it out (first- time post). I’ve enjoyed reading the various posts and I think the entire issue has already been fully discussed. I would like to weigh in with my own experience and add a possible new wrinkle.
Squid Viscious and I have 3 children, all of whom slept in our bed a great deal when they were infants and continue to do so now. We purchased a king-size bed a few years ago to accomodate space and movement, and I honestly feel my child is safer near me. When the kids were infants, if they were not in bed with me (and I tried to base this on what made them comfortable, not what made me comfortable) they were in a crib less than 2 feet away. Yes, it was more convenient to nurse them when they slept with me. I have always been a very light sleeper, and I was more comfortable being able to moniter them all night right next to me. The infant du jour would sleep right in my arms – if I wanted to roll over I adjusted them appropriately on the other side. Squid Vicious is a notoriously heavy sleeper so the infants never slept on Daddy’s side (he also holds still most of the night, so I never felt there was a thrashing danger). I must add that I have never been comfortable with a baby under 6 months sleeping in another room, even with a monitor. There are so many issues about infant safety, and so many medical opinions about what is right/wrong and safe/unsafe that I feel it really has to be an individual family decision.
My kids are spaced far enough apart that we have run the entire gamut of safety issues. When my oldest was born, the vogue position was on the stomach for sleeping (sleeping on the back was said to engender a choking hazard). Since he never, and I mean never, spit up, I was really torn and wound up propping him on his side a lot. When he got old enough to move freely he preferred his stomach. The other two also preferred sleeping on their stomachs, even when medical technology decided to flip-flop and demand that all babies be put to sleep on their backs. Tucked in the curve of my arm in my bed, they all slept on their side and seemed to nod off quite easily and comfortably. I have regularly witheld information from my doctor because I simply do not want to be drawn into a discussion of safety issues for children nationwide when it is my children I am most concerned about. Each child is different, each parent is different, and laws that restricted child sleeping areas and positions would not stop babies from occasionally dying in their sleep – we do not live in a nerf world and accidents will happen in spite of all legislationery efforts (is that a word?).
Moving ahead with a slightly different comment – SIDS is being spoken of and written about in totally different context than when I remember first learning of it, and sometimes I question its validity. Before the birth of the oldest Squidlet, I was told some horror story by a friend about her aunt having had a baby who died in the middle of the night because he spontaneously stopped breathing. This was presumed to occur with what they were then referring to as Sudden Infant Death Syndrome. Apparently, a subsequent child was put on a monitor that would screech if the chest did not rise and fall regularly, and according to this friend, there were many occasions in the first 3 months where the parents were roused by the screeching monitor and woke the baby to get him to breath again. I cannot vouch for any validity of this story, but that is where my opinion of SIDS was originally formed – as a case where an infant sleeps so deeply that the breathing mechanism does not respond.
Before the birth of the 3rd Squidlet, I recieved pamphlets from the physician on various topics, one of which was entirely devoted to preventing SIDS. Much to my surprise, every preventative measure was actually designed to prevent smothering deaths. I have to ask – When did smothering a child become a Syndrome?? Is there a genetic defect in a parent who piles blankets on an infant, or lays them down on a bunch of fluffy pillows? I just don’t get it. If there is a defect out there where babies stop breathing and Sudden Infant Death Syndrome actually exists, then calling all accidental or intentional smothering deaths would cause a great disservice to the investigation, research, and possible cure for said Syndrome.
Maybe this should be a new thread (Does SIDS actually exist?) but as this is my first post I’m not ready to be that bold yet.
Granted, I’m not a parent, so if this degenerates into a “I’m a mommy and therefore I know everything that’s best for everybody’s child” argument, then I’ll lose out. However, it just seems like common sense would tell people that it’s too easy to roll over onto kids and hurt or kill them. I also remember reading articles years back where babies died when they got their heads stuck between the mattress and headboard somehow. I think even the most devoted parent could have a particularly good night of sleep and not realize until they wake up that their arm was over the baby’s mouth the whole night and now the kid’s dead.
If I had a kid, I think I’d keep him in a bassinet in my bedroom with me, so he’d feel safe knowing that I was close by, but wouldn’t be in danger of me crushing him (I tend to be a heavy sleeper). I may have to get up and walk a few extra feet to feed him, but it would be worth it knowing he was safe. Also, people shouldn’t be made to feel guilty if they want their kid sleeping in a separate room, in case they want a better night’s sleep or want to spend the night having loud sex. Singing a baby to sleep or rubbing his back and belly will put him to sleep just as well as if he were in a bed with you (but then again, I know this from baby-sitting and working at a day care, so the mommies can rip on me all they want).
My wife is a very light sleeper. She tells me that early in our relationship I used to flop around a lot at night and hit her with my arms in the process. (I was not used to sleeping with someone at the time.)Wow! This is an amazing forum! I registered just to put my own 2 cents in, as an interested father (twice) with my own anecdotal experience.
When our first born arrived, the first night was hell. We had a ‘high maintenance’ child who required constant attention, which meant in and out of the bed all night (10 minute intervals, and I’m not kidding) Finally, we let him in our bed, (a waterbed) but I was exteremly apprehensive, as my knowledge of co-sleeping was similar to that reflected in many of the prior posts. Finally we slept, and no one died.
The next day, we visited a ‘La Leche’ lady on an entirely different matter, and the co-sleeping issue came up. According to her, the ‘old wives tales’ about the dangers of co-sleeping came about during the middle ages. Apparently, when times were tough, and people had too many mouths to feed, parents were purposely smothering their children in bed. The Church ( I assume she meant the Catholic Church) came out with an edict prohibiting sleeping with your infants to prevent this.
Then she said that non-drugged/drunk/etc. mothers have an instinct that does not allow them to roll over their child while asleep. The mothers temperature will also change to regulate the child’s temperature automatically and mom will instinctively feed the child in her sleep. (This is true, My wife does it) She also told us that the dad has no such instinct and can roll over the child. (so the baby sleeps on the wifes side of the bed)
At the time, I think I decided to believe this out of convenience, and it has made our life a whole lot easier.
As I said, this is only my personal experience. The “La Leche league” is an established organization, which lends some validation to what she said. The thing about mom’s having an instinct makes sense, (they have lactating breasts in the right position) but the church thing seems a little far fetched, I think one would have to be in very dire conditions to smother one’s own child.
Squidwife, it has been a couple years since I read up on the latest SIDS theories (my youngest is 27 months) but you are correct that the umbrella term “SIDS” does not encompass smothering deaths. The basic theory about SIDS, as I understand it, is that while most (all?) infants have periods of sleep apnea, some will not spontaneously resume breathing. No one really understands why it happens, and we may actually be dealing with a number of unrelated problems that have a similar consequence.
My oldest is 11, so I too was told “stomach only for sleeping”, then “no, side is best”, then “wait, what we really meant was back only.” I was another who secretly allowed my newborn to sleep on her stomach. Placed on her back, she would regularly jerk and spasm her legs and arms and wake herself up. But having watched her, from day one, pick up her head and turn it from side to side, I wasn’t worried. I think that with a healthy, full term baby (on a firm mattress, etc.), sleeping position is irrelevant.
tsarina wrote:
This was my worry, too, when I had my first, and the reason I put her in a cradle next to the bed, but didn’t sleep with her. I have always been a very heavy sleeper. Typical conversation between hubby and me: Him: “Wow, that was some thunderstorm last night!” Me: “What thunderstorm?” What I found was that, once I became a parent, I developed that ability to selectively wake for my child. I still sleep through thunder, but I wake up for the slightest murmur from a baby. What is even more interesting is that as we added to our family and unofficially made the nursing infant my nighttime responsibility while hubby took over for the older children, I learned to sleep through the older children waking up (while hubby would jump out of bed) and I would get up for the baby, (while hubby slept soundly.) It really is amazing what your brain can do. So I don’t think it is even remotely possibly that, sober and healthy, I could “have a particularly good night of sleep and not realize until (I) wake up that (my) arm was over the baby’s mouth the whole night and now the kid’s dead.”
One thing that should be mentioned here is that you should never, ever, ever put a sleeping baby down with an adult who is already asleep. You greatly increase the risk of smothering if the adult is not aware that a child is with him.
Oops, forgot something else I wanted to say.
tsarina also wrote:
You are correct in that this method will work for many babies, perhaps even most babies. But it will not work for all of them. We all have ideas, formed from watching our younger siblings, babysitting or reading, about how babies and children are “supposed” to respond to things. I certainly did. One of the most important lessons I have learned in my 11-years-so-far of parenting is that every child is different.
My oldest has always been a good sleeper. She did just fine in her cradle and moved easily into a crib. She gave up nighttime nursing quite early and happily stayed in her crib all night. She napped with almost military precision. Ten years later, I still know her schedule: 9:30 to 11:00 and 1:30 to 3:00. These days she is inevitably asleep before her younger brother. She knows when she is tired and falls asleep easily.
My youngest (Nora), on the other hand, is very different. As a newborn she did not ever sleep for more than 20 minutes in her crib. She couldn’t. She would be obviously tired and want to sleep, but be unable to do so. She was a very light sleeper, and the slightest noise would waken her. We had never before tiptoed around the house during naptime, but we tried. I bought a white noise machine. What worked best was to put her in the sling and carry her around. She didn’t like to lie down there, either, but preferred to be help upright against my chest. There, she could sleep for an hour or more.
She is 27 months now, and sleeping is less of an issue these days. She is starting to give up her naps, but when she does need one she often crawls into my bed and goes to sleep on her own. She starts out the night in a double bed with her sister (she never liked sleeping alone anywhere-cradle, crib or toddler bed) and usually comes in with us in the wee hours.
Nora is also the most needy child I have ever known in terms of her need for physical contact. I have never met another child who needs so many hugs and kisses, so many snuggles, so much lap time. Yet she is also incredibly independent when she chooses. She started dressing herself at a very early age, is fearless at the playground and takes it on herself to clean up her toys and messes. I could have insisted that she learn to sleep alone, I could have forced her to learn to do without me more of the time. There are lots of “experts” out there who would have backed me up, too, encouraging me to let her “cry it out”, not to “spoil” her. Yet I wonder, had I done so, might I not have created a whiny, clingy, distrustful child instead of the admittedly intense, but wonderfully self-confident and self-sufficient child I have now?
My point, (really, I do have one!) is that when the experts insist that one way is best (in this case, the crib is always safer and should be used exclusively) some parents will ignore their instincts and force a parenting style that does not mesh with their child’s personality. If you have a highly sensitive infant who doesn’t behave the way babies are “supposed” to, it is certainly worth it to create a safe place for you both to sleep. That information should be readily available. Instead, you are more likely to find books suggesting that you leave that baby in the crib, crying to the point of vomiting, because he “needs to learn to sleep on his own.”
I don’t really have an opinion on co-sleeping, but I wanted to point out that Le Leche Leauge is an established orginization in the same way PETA is: even those who firmly back thier basic princples admit that they are oftentimes more radical than right. Le Leche is almost Millitant about the cult of natural motherhood, and I frankly wouldn’t assume that anything they told you about “mother’s insticts” was based on anything other than anecdotal evidence and the fierce belief that any deviation from the way cavewomen raised babies is degenerate. You should have asked her if adoptive mothers posessed this “instinct” or if it was an birth hormone thing. Seems like if it can be learned it can be learned by fathers. La Leche does good work, but they are ideaological orginization as much as a scientific one.